Problem with Netbook Compact flash and Mac

[Davidish]

You may or may not know that when a CF card is inserted in a Mac something funny happens to the file system on the card. I have experienced this several times trying to transfer files from my iMac (running Mac OS 8.6) to my Netbook.

My question is: Does anybody know if this problem persists with Mac OS X? Or even Mac OS 9.X ?

Is this problem a real problem? It has screwed up the file system on my CF card and confused the Netbook on occassion. But usually I manage to find the file I wanted to tranfer eventually somewhere in the mass of extra folders! I then always reformat the Card to avoid the problem happening again - until I have to transfer things between the Psion and the Netbook again...!!! Very frustrating.

Anybody got any suggestions? (Other than ditch the Mac...)

Is it a problem with the CF Card? Maybe I'm not formatting it correctly? Should I format it with different cluster sizes and then will it work?

Hope someone can shed some light on this.

Thanks,
David.

[markdeppe]

Hi David

I have posted on this numerous times all with no joy. Yes it does happen with OS 9.* very badly and will even crash the imac if you try and open one of the numerous huge files or folder that suddenly appear on the CF. I have found no way round it and tried 2 cf readers and about 5 different cards. Ihave heard of no explanation for the crazy file names with weird dates and huge sizes reproted far bigger than the cf cards size.
The only thing positive on this score I have ever heard but not yet tried is someone posted once that a scandisk CF reader with a scandisk CF card worked perfectly with an Imac. Still no explanationas to why no others work. After loads of messing with this problem and reformating numerous ways etc, and trying only copying certain files and folder to the CF, I discovered that at some point it will still mess up the CF.

Interestingly I recently tried a 1GB CF card and it does not do it with that, but the card is rediculously slow and IMO more hassle than it is worth, completly slowing the whole netbook to a crawl.

[diem]

what happens to the filesystem exactly? Is it just that a bunch of extra folders and files appear, such as Desktop.dbf and resource.frk etc?

If this is you problem, then what is happening is that the Mac is just doing what it automatically does to storage volumes - it sticks a bunch of files and folders on them for its own purposes, for example the Desktop file stores the associations of files to applications. When viewed on a Mac, these files and folders are not shown, because you don't need to know about them - the classic Mac paradigm. When viewed on another platform, the files/folders show up because MacOS isn't there to hide them.

To test this theory, put a PC-formatted floppy in your Mac, write a file onto it, and view it on a PC. You will see the same set of files and folders have appeared.

This will happen on OS9 certainly, and will probably happen on OS X, if the disk format is the same as with the previous OS.

If the above is not your problem, please explain it in more detail.

[markdeppe]

Yan: <<<what happens to the filesystem exactly?>>> I can post you pictures if you like, it is hard to explain really as it is different every time. Bsically loads of new folders and files appear all over the place, they have wierd names with characters I can not even find in my character set on my psion or mac, and dates like 1804 or 2087 and file sizes like 3GB on a 64MB card. The appear in directories already presnet and in new directories they create and sometimes there are Trees of them

<<< Is it just that a bunch of extra folders and files appear, such as Desktop.dbf and resource.frk etc?>>> NO. these I know about and are perfectly normal and expeced and harmless.

<<<To test this theory, put a PC-formatted floppy in your Mac>>> No floppy drive on an imac.

the cards and CF readers work fine on a PC for what its worth

[diem]

Okey doke. My next suggestion would indeed be the format. EPOC uses FAT12, rather than the DOS standard of FAT16. Perhaps the Mac recognises the CF as FAT formatted, then assumes it is FAT16?

To test this theory, you will need to format the card in a different way.

What options does MacOS have for formatting CFs? First thing I'd try is formatting the card using the Mac format (HPFS or similar) and use it soley on the Mac - if it works okay then you know the card and reader are compatible with Mac.

Next you will need to format the card FAT16. The only ways I know of doing this are with Atelier's Essential Disk Utilities for EPOC, which are not free, or plugging the reader into a PC and using that.

[markdeppe]

<<<To test this theory, you will need to format the card in a different way.>>> I have not been able to do this other than trying the standard PC and mac erase and format options.

<<<What options does MacOS have for formatting CFs?>>> None other than plain erase disk, I trawled all over the web looking for software to do this and posted requests all with no joy, as I was and am resisting paying FOR EDU for a one off use which may not make any difference so have been hoping someonelse would be able to test this theory who has a PC with the different formatting options.

I have tried formatting the card in a mac and in a pc in their standard formats and it makes no difference. The cards and reader works fine with my digital camera and with all files as long as I do not put it in the psion and start copying psion files to it. I thought maybe the fact that it doesn't do it with the microdrive would offer a clue as to the cause. The microdrive was formatted in the psion so is using the same FAT as the CF cards. Interestingly when it came out the box new it did have the same problem and then as it was corrupted I reformatted it in the psion and then it worked fine. Strange that I thought.

<<<use it soley on the Mac - if it works okay then you know the card and reader are compatible with Mac.>>> This works fine, even when formatted in the psion or digital camera, the problem only occurs when it is put in the psion where it will work fine and copy files great but as soon as it is taken out and put in the MAC the trouble comes and then it will crash in the mac and the psion with corrupt disk errors messages.

<<<Next you will need to format the card FAT16.>>> I am happy to post a card to someone who can do this for me and they cold post it back, I would pay the postage. I have my doubts on this though as the microdrive works psion formatted and I have heard that someone post that a sandisk CF with sandisk reader works, but I am happy to give it a go to rule it out, even though I am now MACless and PCless since I moved a few weeks ago I still have access to the MAC and would love to solve this conumdrum, which has frustrated me for nearly 2 years

Thanks for you help and time with this Yan

[diem]

So I've just waded into a longstanding problem with no new solutions then eh ;)

I think that both the microdrive and 1GB CF work because they are too large for FAT12, and will be FAT16 formatted.

If you've already formatted a CF using a PC and it didn't help, then I am at a loss. Perhaps the last chance is to find someone on the forums who has EDU and will format one of your disks for you. I'd gladly do it, but I don't own EDU for the same reason as you - the price :o(

Bottom line, from what you've said, is that the Mac flips out for some reason and corrupts the disk. Perhaps you should be looking to Apple for some support or suggestions here? Perhaps their support website has some info on using CF cards?

[Fred_R]

Hi Guys,
Please read the thread on the Series 7 Forum on 'Microdrive Problems'. It describes exactly the issues raised.

I solved the problem by formatting the microdrive on my PC then restoring from the PC backups.

I normally use a small CF (32 MB) to transfer files from the 7Book to the iBook (like RTFs and the like) it was just convenient at the time to use the microdrive while the psion was out of action. I have only just got the iBook so I have yet to try to transfer from the iBook to the 7Book, I will keep you posted.

I guess you live and learn ...

Fred

[Davidish]

Fred, Please do try to transfer files from the IiBokk to your 7book and report back. I'm intrigued to know if this "formatting on a PC" solves the issue.

Thing is, I bet it makes no difference As I formatted a CF card on the netbook and then only found the wierd files once the card had visited the iMac once and returned to the netbook.

Let us know how you get on,
David.

[markdeppe]

Bad news. I have tried formatting in a PC and still no joy. Worse still I have just had a corrupt microdrive error come up, and it would not allow the netbook to format it. I then formated it in the Imac and the netbook says dik not present when I switch to the D drive and if I try agaion to format it in the psion the same message . I then formatted it as normal, then expanded, then, Dos and to all of these the netbook says NO WAY, to reading or writing or formatting. I was literally sorting the files off it to return it to Clove as it is rediculously slow and impracticle it even causes a delay in getting from the passwaord startup screen. Now it seems this corruption and reformating will not allow it to be seen by the psion at all, not even a corrupt disk message - the disk works in the imac still via CF reader. So it goes off in the post today, and I will wait for the 1GB CF card to come down in preice a little.

All the best to the rest of you pursuing this problem I wish you strength it has lost me hours, caused blood pressure and near violence to machines.

I surrender, the machine wins for now. I will stick with JUST psion :-)

[Davidish]

Mark, I sympathise. And I have come to a similar conclusion. It's Netbook or bust! Well, actually in terms of backup I still have a solution - the excellent ftp server for EPOC is brilliant, and so is nFTP.

Oh and I am thinking of getting the EPOCBackup prog from Fatcatz
(http://www.fatcatz.net)- does anybody use this? Is it worth the money?

Does anybody know of a site that reviews all the backup options from Netbook that do not require PsiWin?

Thanks,
D

[markdeppe]

David

I use Ralph Sprengers Backup and can not recommend it highly enough.

psionwelt.de

[Fred_R]

David,
I wasn't prepared to risk my microdrive, which is now operating without fault, but I did use a smaller CF to transfer files to and from the iBook.

I didn't look too deeply but there did seem to be some extra files, apart from the ones I transfered. However the files did transfer both ways without incident and can be read from their new 'home'.

One thing I hoped to do was to use the iBook as a backup for the microdrive but this does not look sensible. So I will persue other angles, as per yours and markdeppe's comments.

Fred

[markdeppe]

Fred: As mentioned it is usual for a few extra files to be copied to the CF via the CF reader usually called things like Finder.dat the thing to be way of is filenames with loads of strange characters I can not find them on this keyboard to sho you unfortunatly and the files and or directories have bizzar dates and often huge illusions of file size. As a warning it does not always appear immediatly usually it takes a copying from the C:/ to the CF and then a pluggin in the reader. If you took a cleanly formated cf, put it in the Ibook and copied files to it and put it in the psion you would be fine I think, but if you copy from the psion to the CF at all then put it in the mac you are in for trouble.

[DanielV]

Hi All,

My home system is a G4 Apple tower that I use with my netBook. I have simpletech 256MB CF cards that I use with the CF card reader when transfering files between platforms. All of my cards have been formatted with the EDU software, FAT16 with 32 bit sectors.

When files from the Apple have been loaded onto the CF card, then viewed on the netBook, I still have the Desktop DB, Desktop DF, FILEID.DAT icons with the RESOURCE.FRK folder which is generated by the Apple platform OS 9.*. Yet to install the OSX (10.2)

Yes, this can be annoying somewhat, since one cannot create a folder/file system from the netBook to the CF card, then use it on the Apple, as the file system will be corrupted the next time the netBook views the CF card. I always use the Apple folder/file system on the CF card.

But, I have learned to put up with it, as this is the fastest available transfer of files between these platforms. Transferring individual files between the drives on the netBook is not a problem, as long as one does not create a folder/file system on the CF card used with the Apple OS. I have well over 100MB of research files. I have been doing this for a year now, with no corruption related issues.

Ethernet is well and nice, but the CF card that I want the files transfered too, has to be removed to accomodate the ethernet card for the connect to the desktop. Rather defeats the purpose really. It would be nice, if there was a common file architecture, that both platforms could use to fix the corruption issue.

[markdeppe]

Daniel: <<<I still have the Desktop DB, Desktop DF, FILEID.DAT icons with the RESOURCE.FRK folder which is generated by the Apple platform OS 9.*>>>

Yes these are usual files and no problem at all. The files and directories that are causing the problems are nothing like these usual files. Interesting you do not have the problem. What is the brand of the CF reader you use? Have you tried the cards if they are not Formatted with EDU, maybe this is the solution to our problem.

[DanielV]

Hi All,

The brand of the CF card reader is the old NewerTech unit, that I picked up for next to no money (freeware), hence, this is the only reason I am using it.

I have always preformatted all my CF cards using the EDU software. It was just a logical step for me, since the cards have always worked with the netBook and the Apple OS system.

Hope this helps.

[Davidish]

What parameters fo you choose when formatting with EDU? Can you list all the details (sectors, cluster size, etc...). I tried just straight FAT16 and I still have the same problem.

Are you sure you have not had this problem? the problem usually appears once you have completed one loop (i.e. copied files from Psion to Mac and then back to Psion). I'm intrigued to know your setup. If it's becasue of the CF reader that is indeed amazing, and disappointing - I'll have to go hunting for this particular brand. Can you post a picture so that we know what to look for?

Thanks,
David

[DanielV]

David,

OK, the formatting of all my CF cards are done with the EDU software, FAT 16 with 32 bit sectors. I believe this gives the best read / write performance for my 256mb SimpleTech cards. The rest of the settings are the standard custom default, reserve sector =1, root entries =512. (root entries =256 for my CF card in D drive, I do not plan to have more than 100 folder in the root directory)

I have had corruption of my CF cards in the past, but only when I start creating a filing system from the netBook onto the CF card. Never ever create a filing system architecture from the netBook to your CF card. Always file your CF card content on the Apple desktop. Only copy individual files from the netBook to the root directory of the CF card you intent to use on the Apple.

The netBook corrupts the CF card content generated by the Apple filing system if you create a filing system from the netBook to the CF card. Essentially, the CF card will not take both filing systems. It appears the Apple system seems to function on the netBook as a read only, but do not touch, apart from copying individual files to the root directory, for up loading to the Apple computer.

I am not entirely convinced, that my CF card reader is the answer to the corruption issues between the OS's. I am no wizard with computer kit, but Yan's response appears to be answer. The netBook and the Apple OS have different filing system architecture that may not be compatibile. So, I have always kept the Apple filing system on the CF card, and use the netBook to view the files, only.

Nevertheless, I am on holidays, away from my apple G4 home, so I cannot post a picture ot the NewerTech CF card unit, if this is what you are requesting. When I get home in a couple of weeks, I'll post it then.

All the above was by pure trial and error, that seems to work for me. Hope this helps somewhat?

[markdeppe]

Thanks for that very clear explantion Daniel as to how to use a CF card with a Mac and netbook. From my experience your advice is spot on. The reason I found it unworkable except for moving files from the mac to the netbook with a CF card I used just for that purpose (as in I never wrote to it from the netbook) is the thing I wanted most was to store backup copies of the netbook C:/ on the MAC, and I use a regular backup prgram on the netbook so the CF is always being written to. So MAC user are still stuck with a less than perfect solution. I have recently sold my CF reader and some cards and hope to buy a SAN disk card and reader, I will post if I these solve the problem, though from your posting this seems unlikly as it seems to be caused by the different filing structures though not being technical I am not sure what these differences are as superficially on the surface they seem similar.

[Davidish]

Mark, if you can network your netbook to the apple, you could use ftp to transfer the backups...

alternatively here's an idea that takes advantage of Daniel's workaround: get a Zip program and zip up the directory that contains the backup of drive C then you have the backup in one file which should not corrupt the CF card when copied over, as Daniel reports.

D

[markdeppe]

Good suggestion D. I am a registered user of RMRZip which until now I had thought could not do this zipping of whole folders and directories or multiple files, but having just reexplored it I see an option under add file of add all and under options select Recurse to include subflolders which does allow this and it works very well, so thanks for that as I now have discovered a good use for a program I have used only in a limited fashion. I no longer own a mac having recently left my work which used the mac and have just a psion, I hope to explore FTP at a leter date for backing up though I think my clara web space is limited in size so could only hold essential files.