M100 Battery Replacement No Data [Archive]

mebock

09-06-2002, 09:06 PM

A friend and I both have M100s that do the same thing. Palm suggested I:

(1) sync before changing batteries
(2) buy better batteries and a battery tester.

The problem with just syncing, of course, is that you also have to restore all your apps. What I have found helpful is the open-source Pilot xfer utility, available at Sourceforge.net. It backs up almost everything, so I don't even lose my bridge scores. I use it in addition to normal syncing, and there's never any problem. The only thing that is lost is a few customizations, like button reassignments.

I'm curious: how long had you had your Plam when this started? My friend and I both started having the problem at about 13 months. His has also gotten worse -- doing this not only at battery changeout, but pretty much randomly and just today it went into the dreaded Palm-logo-only mode.

Drop me a note (mebock@hotmail.com) if you have questions about Pilot Xfer. Put 'Pilot Xfer' in the subject line so I actually read it. :)

Meg

tortanus

09-06-2002, 09:35 PM

I've had the Palm m100 for about 14 months or so before the problem got worse. I find that sometimes it'll work if I do it within 10 seconds or so and only replace one battery at a time.

From what I can find out, the m100 (and maybe other Palms) have a capacitor that provide enough charge for you to change batteries. My assumption is that this capacitor eventually develops a lower charge capacity over time.

I find your idea about the pilot program only somewhat useful, for in my case, I'm away from a real comuter for three months and that makes it kinda hard to even do a regular sync to backup before changing batteries.

Thanks a bunch for the idea when I do change batteries at home.

Sean

Peregrine

09-08-2002, 05:59 PM

well, there is one other thing: fake batteries.
hehe.

anyway, it's just a circuit that you make: 2 sets of batteries, some voltage regualtors, and some woden dowels with screws in the end. the dowels simulate batteries (and keep the screws in contact with the wires and internal terminals, and the circuit holds 4 tripple a (or double a) batteries. i can't describe it in too much detail, but basically you can just put in 2 most of the time, and when they get too low, put in 2 more and remove the first two. quite handy, though it does make the pda a bit larger... (the best way is one that fits to the bottom and plugs also into the hotsync port, with a throughport. and a radiolink :) (allows hotsyncing up to a mile away from your computer)

hmm. TI calculators are much better with batteries. for one, they have archive flash rom (leave your batteries out and it still stays. yay) and a backup battery (watch battery) to keep the non archive energized while you change batteries. I like my TI-89. also easier to make programs for. and it has more buttons.

tortanus

09-09-2002, 01:38 AM

Yes, I know that sort of thing but my girlfriend would go batty about that I think. I've put a 'fake' battery pack into my Nino 510 and it works great so far. The nino actually has a rechargeable lithium backup, so I've never lost my data in that device unless I leave it without batteries or recharging for over a month or so.

I was thinking that maybe a connecting a battery pack to the terminals before disconnecting the real batteries and removing it after the replacement were in might save the data, but does anyone know if the extra juice would fry anything?

I like the idea about the radiolink, but i think they'll come out iwht the wireless CF card 102b or whatever it is before I attempt that.

Thanks though for the input.

DrMud

09-09-2002, 02:21 PM

There is a known problem with the capacitor that holds the charge while the batteries are out to be changed. If the palm is new take it back and exchange it. If under warranty call Palm. Even if you are out of warranty I would call them on this since it has happened a lot.
DrMud

dvandormael

09-10-2002, 04:31 AM

Hi,

I have just got the same problem.
When changing my batteries (within 15 seconds, the task was completed), the Palm logo screen came and everything was erased ! My palm (m100) is 18 months old.

I was thinking it was because the old batteries where very, very low. Therefore I tried several times (changing new batteries for new batteries) and I had the same problem.

Some times, the Palm logo was blinking and all the device had to be rebooted again !

Very ennoying where you are far from your computer and when you can not re-install everything.

Denis

tuffguy

09-10-2002, 09:47 AM

I have never experienced this problem with my 125.

Just in case, I always sync before I change the batteries. I know this isn't possible for everyone, but it is for me. Also, I only replace one battery at a time, and I buy the highest quality batteries I can.

Is this a problem that will develop over time, is it specific to certain models, or is it user error?

I don't go for that fake battery stuff. Seems like it would be better to upgrade to a rechargable model instead of having some kind of mutant pda hanging out of your briefcase.

Just my opinion!

Tuff

strider_mt2k

09-15-2002, 07:29 AM

Wooden dowel fake batteries and some kluge with wires just might win you the science fair trophy, but it doesn't strike me as a real-world fix.
For now replace your batteries one at a time.

Also, I believe the Palm III connector and the m100/m105 connector is the same. What will determine compatability is the round bottom of the M100 series.

I believe that a bridge to go from universal connector to a Palm III connector is all that's needed.

BTW, I am developing a LIon solution for the M125 called the M127 modification. I have posted about it.

sjsansbury

09-15-2002, 07:55 AM

I have an m100 and after 13 months or so it has developed this issue. I thought a t first this was due to using particular types of batteries, at first it only happened when I used duracell batteries and not with Tesco batteries. now, no matter what cells I use I must sync before replacing my batteries.

I know this is what the manual tells you to do anyway but it is a pain in the arse.

Shame there isnt a way to email all the backup files to a server to be downloaded later...

Simon

lpret

04-19-2003, 01:55 PM

Wow guys, if you ever open up your M100 (or anything in this series I suppose) you'll find a small battery soldered on there actually, after some googling, I found that ELNA is the company that makes these things. This is called a coin cell capacitor. This is the site of the company (http://www.elna-america.com/news.htm#DCK) I called some of their distributors in Texas and they won't sell a single unit. So good luck. with the markings "ELNA 3.3v .22 F". I would suppose that would be the root of all yalls problems. The next step, and where I'm at, is where do you find such a battery to replace that one? Radio Shack and Walmart don't have em (for all the Americans). Any ideas?

DrMud

04-22-2003, 10:03 AM

Great piece of detective work!
I checked out the site and the unit looks for all the world like a hearing aid battery.
They probably use the same case as a battery rather than manufacture a new case.
How many units do they sell at a time?
Doc

finder

04-22-2003, 11:03 AM

Thank goodness you guys are out there! I thought I had evil demons (is that redundant?) in my office.

I changed the batteries in my M100 and got the "erase data? press up, etc. message. Unless you elect to delete all your data, your machine is locked up. I hot-synced but no joy. Before I had a chance to fix mine, my wife asked me to put new batteries in her M100.

Guess what... Same problem. Didn't make sense to me.

Palm replied to my query on this by saying"corrupted files" Poor design sounds more like the real reason.

Any attorneys out there? Sounds like a class action suit to me. (Ugh).

pdacrazy1

04-25-2003, 09:22 AM

This problem is not new.
With my Handspring Neo as well as my Palm M125 you will loose data when changing batteries if any buttons are depressed. Once I realized this changing my batteries no longer a problem.

:D

Telyx

04-25-2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by strider_mt2k
I believe the Palm III connector and the m100/m105 connector is the same. What will determine compatability is the round bottom of the M100 series.

The contact board (for HotSync) is pretty much the same, but the size of the slot in the bottom of the device is bigger on the m100/m105 than on the IIIxe, the spacing from the back of the unit to the contact board is bigger also, and the rounded bottom of the mxxx devices don't let it slip down far enough on the cradle to make contact with the cradle anyway. I tried using my old Palm III cradle with my m105 (when I had it), and it wouldn't go.

hcamstra

04-29-2003, 06:53 AM

I had the same experience once, after letting the batteries run very low. What might help (after a hotsync of course) is to switch off the machine AND THEN WAIT A FEW MINUTES, before changing the batteries. In those minutes remaining battery voltage will creep up just a notch; might do the trick in a quick change.

agnes

05-12-2003, 04:16 AM

another frustrated M105 user facing the same problem here, while changing battery. will switching of the device and wait for a while before changing battery, actually work? can the battery voltage level affect this? ie how much voltage left before you change to a new battery? i've changed when its about 2.1v left and it's still facing the same data lost problem.

palms/o

05-12-2003, 09:32 AM

OKay... a few things first:

We have established that it is the failure of the back-up capacitor that is causing the problem... a CAPACITOR is not a BATTERY... capacitors store a charge but do not create one of their own, they also can discharge the entire stored charge at once... batteries (or cells) create their own charge by chemical reaction, it is this reaction that limits how quickly they discharge their entire potential. Okay science lesson over... basically either replace the capacitor... or replace the Motherboard that it is soldered onto.

Gethightech (http://********hightech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=MB) has them for $10.00 , pretty cheap if you ask me.

The reason I suggest replacing the entire mb...is because after checking out the ELNA site I realized that you would have to find a capacitor that is rated at .22F... not .22uF
anyone who knows the difference here can relate to the HUGE difference it truly makes.... basically it's a capacitor that can store a large enough charge that it could behave like a battery. Or shock you to death if applied to the right spot...you think I'm kidding....:eek:

Anyway... aside from the difficulty in locating a replacement capacitor, there is also the trouble with soldering around the CPU and other chips on the mb that don't like high temps... personally I would just replace the whole thing... and like I said, ten dollars is pretty cheap to avoid melting the thing anyway and having to replace it after already forking over who knows how much to find a replacement capacitor with that large a rating.

Oh, and this just in case someone thinks about replacing the capacitor with a similar sized battery... DON'T... ever see what happens when you recharge non-rechargeable batteries, hehe... you will if you try this. You will see it coming out all over your motherboard. Back to replacing the whole thing....;)

Ultimately though, my suggestion is to replace it with a Palm Vx, M125, M500, M130... or heck, a Tungsten T (no...NOT a Zire)
:D :D :D

Have fun

hdc090360

05-20-2003, 05:52 PM

The Battery problem is the result of very bad design by Palm. The Elna capacitor that they use is rate at .22farad at 3.3V. Problems arise because the voltage across the cap is 3.35V. Any capacitor design manual will tell you that you should allow at least 10% margin in the voltage rating. Exceeding the rated voltage will quickly lead to overheating and the demise of the cap.

The fix we have found is to replace the cap with one made by panasonic which is rated at 5.5V. (part no. EECS0HD224H)
Unfortunately it does not fit into the same spot so we superglue them to the top of the ram chip just above where the Elna cap came out of, and run leads to the pads. Make sure you get positive to positive. You must also put a 120 Ohm resistor in series with the cap as the ESR of the panasonic is a lot lower than the Elna and the inrush current could damage the regulator.

P.S. Don't try this unless you are confident with a soldering iron.

palms/o

05-22-2003, 03:13 PM

VERY confident with a soldering iron:D

rtm

07-18-2003, 04:46 AM

It seems there is another alternative to replace the ELNA coin capacitor. I found the panasonic model EECENOF204A (0.2F 3.3v, thinner than the ELNA cap). The Datasheet indicates it's equivalent to the origin capacitor except it's 0.2F.

I've replaced my spoiled capacitor with this panasonic model and it seems to work.

The capacitor was ordered from Farnell.

mmencke

07-18-2003, 01:34 PM

Ultimately though, my suggestion is to replace it with a M125, M130 Nope, same problems there

jlhaase

07-22-2003, 04:11 PM

The original replacement capacitor can also be gotten from a Distributer. Newark electronics carries them in stock $2.35 USD apiece.

Newark part number ...
83F5281

In stock, I just ordered a couple :)

mmencke

07-24-2003, 04:54 PM

The original replacement capacitor can also be gotten from a Distributer. Newark electronics carries them in stock $2.35 USD apiece. is it realy worth the time to replace a dead capacitor with another one that may fail at any time anyway? I'd save the $2.35 and time & spend both on an upgrade.

MarkFolse

08-14-2003, 03:57 PM

I wonder how many of us with this problem are ripping the PDA right of the cradle and changing the batteries. One poster suggested letting it sit power off for a while.

Any of you EE/soldering iron whizzes know if this capacitor is operating at reduced capacity or likely fried (nothing short of new PDA or motherboard surgery will help)?

TIA.

P.S. I'm an old enuf geek to remember when circuit jumpers were common on personal computers, before they just started throwing the rejects into the reject pile (or putting them in boxes to ship out for sale).

If I decide I can afford a new one, I might just try to new capitor/resistor circuit, but only if I know my wife will OK a new Palm if I goof).

mauriciam

01-03-2004, 11:07 AM

I have the same problem on my m100.
I think it is possible to create a external "backup battery"...
take a battery like a cr3032 (3 V) and make a couple of contact soldering on the face of the battery two little conductor (i.e. the hard little phone cable). Insert the other end in the contact in the battery case before you replace themes... this is a parallel link, so no overvoltage... disconnect all after replacement...

What do you think about this idea?
(please, excuse me for my english)

Maurizio

John D. Hoge

01-04-2004, 08:25 AM

My wife (Palm M100) and I (Palm M125) have had the exact same problem (i.e., loss of all data even when replacing batteries within 30 seconds). This never happend when we were using the version of the Palm OS that shipped with our handhelds, but now happens every time we replace our batteries now that we have upgraded our Palm OS on both PDAs. I think this strongly implicates an OS code error and I think Palm has little motivation to go back and fix it since the updated OS appears not be be causing this trouble with more recent Palm devices. BTW, and for what it is worth, we are both Mac OS X users, so maybe that, too, may account for our neglect and troubles.

scottoldford13

01-26-2004, 02:07 PM

People I hade a Palm for like 1 month the first time I changed the batteries all my data was ersed and i never hotsync it becasue the hotsync wouldn't work it happened everytime I changed the battereries it happened it SUCKED !!
anyways I don't use that palm anymore don't even have batteries in her so that's that !!!

rtpdave

02-01-2004, 11:47 PM

The backup capacitor in my m100 is verrrry useless. I swap batteries VERY quickly, one at a time, but the capacitor has gotten so bad that it STILL sometimes loses its memory. I have less than one second to swap a battery, to avoid losing the data.

There's a guy on eBay selling packages of six "tiny" 0.47F 2.5v capacitors for $0.99 + $1.51 s&h = $2.50. I've just ordered a package:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?&query=memory+backup+capacitors+tiny
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=cochlea

3.3v would be better than 2.5v. But two of these capacitors in series should be equivalent to a single capacitor rated 0.23F at 5.0v, so it should work, if I can fit them into the case. (Since I use NiMH batteries in my m100, I might be able to get by with just one of these capacitors, since two NiMH batteries in series would only slightly exceed the 2.5v rating of one capacitor... but since the capacitors come in 6-packs, why risk it?)

I think this will work. But since I don't have them yet, I don't know for sure.

BTW, the torx bit to remove those tiny screws is a "T5". I got mine in a $2 set of bits ranging from T-5 to T-9 (the T9 fits the slightly larger little screws on most hard disk drives). I found 'em at Ace Hardware, in the "cheap tools bin."

Question: I assume that these super-capacitors normally fail "open." Is that true? Or do they ever fail "leaky" (partial short), instead? Does anyone here know?

-Dave

P.S. -- If these don't work, there are others on eBay, too:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?&query=(memory,backup,".22 farad",".22F","0.22 farad","0.22F")+(capacitor,capacitors)

rtpdave

02-05-2004, 04:11 PM

Woo hoo! The capacitors came. They are marked "Kanebo PAS920 Japan." They are very tiny (about half the diameter of a dime, and the thickness of a penny), but they won't quite fit where the original cap was. However, that was easily solved with glue and wires.

My m100 is now working great! I took out the batteries for a full minute, then put 'em back in and nothing was lost. :)

Before I did the surgery on my m100, I did a web search for PAS920, and they are sometimes sold as 3v 0.6F caps. 3v is higher than the NiMH batteries ever go, so I just installed one cap, instead of putting two in series.

However, since then I found the Kanebo web site, and this part number isn't listed, but most of their super-caps are 2.5v. So probably 2.5v is correct, not 3v. So if I were doing it over I'd put two caps in series, for safety. Since I've already installed just one, and since I'm using NiMH batteries, and since it is working well for now, I'm going to use it this way, and see how long it lasts. If it fails, I'll replace the one cap with two in series.

Here's the Kanebo web sites:
http://www.cgc.co.jp/kanebo/english/

-Dave

hdc090360

02-05-2004, 04:55 PM

The problem with the capacitors is that they are not driven off the batteries. The power goes through a DC-DC convertor which outputs 3.35V. This is why the old caps go. If you use 1 three volt cap it will last less time than the original. That is why you must use a 5V or in your case 2 x 3 Volts.

Another factor to consider is the Series resistance of capacitor. The original had a very high input series resistance > 150 ohms.

If you use a cap with a lot less, if it is discharged and you connect new batteries, the inrush current will be very high and may damage the DC-DC convertor.

rtpdave

02-05-2004, 05:14 PM

Thanks, I didn't know that!

Putting two caps in series will double the resistance and halve the capacitance, thus reducing the inrush current. Since it hasn't died so far with just one cap, my guess is that with two it sould be safe.

I've also seen speculation that the reason the original caps fail is that they got overheated when soldered to the pcb.

I'll make the change.

Thanks again.

-Dave

WOPR

03-06-2004, 04:05 PM

If when you change batteries on your m100 or m105 Palm it resets, no matter how quickly you do it, it's because of a capacitor that has died on the motherboard.

Curing this common problem is a 10 minute job if you're confident with a soldering iron, but you need the right capacitor which can be tricky to get hold of. I supply the capacitor with instructions - see my ebay list for UK buyers:

ebay link (UK) (http://cgi6.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=dailynail&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50)

scottoldford13

03-06-2004, 04:17 PM

Sound Great for People with Working M100/M105

Rikky

04-05-2004, 06:14 PM

Thanks for the insight into the problem. I am not an engineer, but pretty much ok with soldering and tinkering with gadgets. Here I share my experience with the same. After I had a broken Palm IIIxe which I dropped, I just went and impulsively bought an m105 from a pawn shop in Vancouver. It also turned out to have the "Lost data" problem, so I was at my wits end. After some googling, I found this site. So, I opened up my Palm IIIxe and found a 5.5v and .1F capacitor - a perfect replacement (as it later turned out) ! :)
After going through about 10 different places trying to open the screws on the back of the m105, one tech chap at a major electronics store was kind enough to lend me his Torx (T-6). I opened up two screws and other two I had to drill them out. I wondered if a T-5 would be needed, but Palm tech support chap didn't know that - anyway, they charge $40 for "tech support", so don't bother yourself - I didn't pay them either.
So, finally, I managed to somehow remove the capacitor, broke it open, resealed it and then "transplanted" it to the m-105 using a borrowed soldering iron - and waited a few hours. My gawd! It works :-) I am very happy and thanks for all the info. :D

Tigger58056

04-09-2004, 12:22 PM

Yes, I have had problems with getting mine going again afterwards. Check my post and follow the link to a site for converting it to rechargeable or just hotsync before and after you change battteries. Its a good idea to not run your palm completley dead. Change em out at 1/3 or 1`/4 life left. Or just try this link. http://www.extendcomputer.com/pages...ChargePalm.html
Im still thinking about going this route.