(Wireless) Network Terminology & Questions

[WolfUK]

Why is it that I can write complex software but I cannot get my head around networking issues! :confused:

Anyway, I am hoping that someone can confirm the following and/or give me some other suggestions ...

Background & Requirements
I have a desktop PC, a laptop and a netBook. I have a dial-up connection on my desktop (Windows 2000) PC. I want to be able to: Share files between the desktop and the laptop.
Share files between the desktop and the netBook.
Use the desktop's dial-up connection from the laptop whether the dekstop is already connected to the internet or not.
Use the desktop's dial-up connection from the netBook whether the dekstop is already connected to the internet or not.

Current Equipment
I currently have: A wired network between my desktop PC and netBook using a NetGear 5 Port Ethernet hub.
Two Dell Truemobile 1150 wireless PC cards (just bought on Ebay :) )
A working FTP server on my desktop PC (tested with my netBook over the wired network).
A working installation of AnalogX Proxy Server to allow my netBook to share my desktop PC's dial-up connection (tested with my netBook over the wired network). This does require the internet connection to be active and the netBook cannot initiate the dialing process.


Definition Confirmation
Are the following rough definitions correct ...

Hub
A method of linking several ethernet cabled computers together to enable more than the on-to-one peer-to-peer setup.

Access Point
A wireless equivalent of a hub. Rather than having a wireless peer-to-peer network with two machines talking to each other an access point allows several machines to communicate with each other. An access point can also have cable ethernet connections to allow a wired network to connect to a wireless network.

Router
A 'branch' off a network that allows the networked machines to share an internet connection. This is usually a broadband connection (layman's terminology ... sorry!).

What Do I Need?
I think that I could either get a wireless adaptor for my desktop PC and an access point to allow all three machines to see each other or I could get an access point that contains some wired ethernet ports and plug my desktop PC into that to let the two wireless machines see it. I'm leaning towards the second option to help save a bit of money (I really don't need to have my desktop PC as a wireless device). Does this sound okay? What access points can people recommend that will work with my Lucent Hermes wireless cards (or is the chipset irrelevant if I am not doing peer-to-peer networking)?

What is the best way of connecting to the internet via my dial-up connection? Can I get the netBook to initiate a dial-up connection on the desktop PC itself or would I need to have this pre-running? Does another proxy server other than AnalogX allow this?

The other option I can see is to buy an Avaya RG-1 Residential Gateway which I can connect via cable to my desktop PC and my laptop and netBook via their wireless cards. It also includes a dial-up modem which, I think, can be dialled by my netBook and this would mean that I could use the netBook to surf the web and check emails even when the desktop PC was switched off.

My only problem with this is that it is a little expensive at about £200. However, if I can get a proxy on my desktop that allows the netBook to initiate dialing when needed and costs less than this then I would be very happy for now.

[WolfUK]

I just wanted to add that as an alternative to the RG-1 ther is also a product called the SMC Barricade SMC7004AWBR and I was wondering if anyone had any experience of it.

Also, can anyone confirm that the RG-1 cannot use its internal modem when its ethernet cable connection is active (which would scupper my attempts to use it from my desktop PC via an ethernet cable!).

[diem]

I can't give the crucial answer (an auto-dialling proxy software) so please please folks, don't ignore this thread just 'cos I've posted on it :p

Any AP will work with your Dell cards - as long as all the devices quote '802.11b' or 'WiFi' then they're all using the same protocol to talk over the air.

A router, in general, is a device that connects a LAN to a broader network. In your case, yes, it would connect your local wireless LAN to the internet. All it basically does is analyse every IP address request that passes around the LAN, and 'routes' those IPs that cannot be resolved on the local LAN out to the broader network.

Your access point definition is basically correct (an AP will always have at least one wired port to connect the wireless devices to the wired LAN). The confusion is that marketing droids will use the term to describe products with all sorts of extra features on top of the basic definition.

Other proxy software to try: WinGate. I sincerely hope someone can crack this little auto-dial chestnut, because it is the holy grail for analogue dialup modem users who want a local LAN...

[jezza]

The only assistance I can reliably supply is to check out the Buffalo Technology range of networking products since most are OEM versions of the Lucent/Avaya product range at a lower cost.

[fladda]

Is the RG-1 the same as an RG-1000 ? This access point was originally sold by Lucent, and was rebadged by all of the usual suspects - HO, Compag, Dell Apple etc. You can usually get RG-1000s for 60 - 80 GBP on Ebay. RG-1000 has an inbuilt V90 modem, and a single Ethernet port. Does NAT and basic routeing.

I've recently set up an RG-1000 for a PC owning friend.

RG-1000 seems to work OK with the Netbook in Wireless mode, using Orinoco 802.11b cards. However, when set to automatically dial, the RG-1000 appeared to sometimes dial at random. Even when there was no 802.11b activity, and no RG-45 Ethernet cable plugged in. Mystery ?

My mate now uses a java programme on his PC to manually conect the RG-1000. Not sure if this Java programme (Airport Modem Utility?) will run on Opera on the Netbook.

I believe that it should be possible to use your Win2000 PC as a basic router and a Proxy server. However, I've never set up the software to do this. Also this would mean leaving the PC permanently on if you want guaranteed instant Netbook access.

Best method of all however, is to dispense with V90 modems completely, and go for ADSL with a wireless router. Instant access internet makes the Netbook a really cool tool, even if the screen redraw times for Opera appear to be powered by stone age algorithms. Shame that Psion and or Opera didn't sign up Roger or Sophie Wilson from Acorn (specialism - getting ARM to draw pixels really fast). Once you've crossed to ADSL, going back to V90 modems is 'difficult'.

Ralph

[WolfUK]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

Ralph, the RG-1 is the same as the RG-1000 and your information was very helpful. I'd love to get an ADSL connection but where I live this is an impossibility so I am stuck with dial-up for now (and possibly the next year or two). It's very depressing when your computer-illiterate parents have better technology than you. :(

I am currently toying with two ideas ... The first is to find a router that includes a serial port for backup connectivity purposes which I can then use for all of my connectivity purposes. This would presumably allow me to have my desktop PC switched off and still have internet access available. The second idea is to use an old laptop I have to run Smoothwall which is a linux-based firewall and router. I'll have to test it first to see if the netBook can activate a dial-up connection on it but it might be a better option since a laptop is, at least, silent.

I also have to follow up another lead which is that the Windows XP (and hopefully 2000) dial-up connection sharing allows the netBook to initiate the call.

I'll post an update as soon as I have done some more testing.

[lilspikey]

You could also try http://www.winroute.com/ which works quite well. I set it up one someones network recently and it was pretty straightforward, although there was a bit of wrestling with outlook (to make it stop autohanging up).

cheers,
John

[diem]

the smoothwall route will definitely work - i have this set up, and a mate used to use it with a modem. It deffo will autodial when a LAN client browses to a non-LAN address. Didn't suggest it before 'cos I didn't realise you had a spare PC lying around ;)

[WolfUK]

Well I try not to boast! :p

It's a really old machine and I'll have to check it's specifications but it may well be the way forward.

It's good news about the auto-dialing however so I'll give it a go and see what happens.

[ehasbrouck]

Obviously, there are several ways to go about the task.

First choice is DSL or cable modem, if available.

If not, if you are willing to spend the money, I would recommend a hardware router/firewall and an external modem. That way you can get to the Internet from the netBook or the laptop, even when the desktop is switched off. Some hardware routers include a print server, so you can print from any of the 3 computers, regardless of whether the others are switched on. I can print from my netBook over wireless, through the print server in my router, even when all the other computers on the LAN are off, using the "lpr" perl script as described in another post on this bulletin board.

I've used the SMC7004ABR (or the SMC7004AWBR if you want a built-in wireless access point in the same device; otherwise you could add a wireless access point later). It has "dial-on-demand" through a serial port to connect an external modem. If you ever get DSL or cable modem you can plug it into the uplink Ethernet port, and keep automatic dial-up fallback whenever the broadband connection goes down.

If you don't have, and don't want to buy, an external modem, then you need a proxy server with "dial on demand" for other machines on the LAN. SyGate works for this, and includes a pretty good firewall:

http://soho.sygate.com/products/gate_ov.htm

A cheaper solution including automatic dial-on-demand is ProxyPlus. It works, but I found it harder to configure than SyGate. It's free for 3 users (2 concurrent users):

http://www.proxyplus.cz

There are proxy server reviews at:

http://www.serverwatch.com/stypes/compare/index.php/compare_cHJveHk

Hope this helps!

[WolfUK]

First choice is DSL or cable modem, if available.
Mine too but my rural location rules this out for a while. :(

If not, if you are willing to spend the money, I would recommend a hardware router/firewall and an external modem. That way you can get to the Internet from the netBook or the laptop, even when the desktop is switched off.
This is definitely a plus for me and is driving a lot of my decision making.

I can print from my netBook over wireless, through the print server in my router, even when all the other computers on the LAN are off, using the "lpr" perl script as described in another post on this bulletin board.
Cool, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I've used the SMC7004ABR (or the SMC7004AWBR if you want a built-in wireless access point in the same device; otherwise you could add a wireless access point later)
It's good to hear from a real-life user! I think that I would personally go for the SMC7004AWBR since it can act as a wireless access point and I am trying to go wireless.


If you don't have, and don't want to buy, an external modem, then you need a proxy server with "dial on demand" for other machines on the LAN. SyGate works for this...
This is great news and solves a lot of problems. I will try to verify that the dial on demand works but for now I'll take your word for it. :)

Hope this helps!
It does indeed ... many thanks.

I am going to try SmoothWall (mainly because I am inquisitive!) but I have a feeling that I will go for a SMC7004AWBR as my solution ... I'm not 100% happy leaving an aged laptop on long term.

[ehasbrouck]

Keep in mind that there may be an advantage to having a separate router and wireless access point: the optimum location of the AP for coverage of your space may be some distance from the router location. With a combined router/AP, you have a real cable mess if you want to move the AP. It's hard to find an AP with a detachable antenna or easy connection for an external antenna, so the antenna is usually fixed to the AP. In many situations, the router location is the *worst* location in the room for the AP antenna, surrounded by the maximum of metal and electromagnetic noise.

[WolfUK]

Very good point, thank you. Maybe I'll get a wireless access point immediately so that I can at least use my wireless netBook with my desktop PC and then get a separate router. This might also be better since it will allow me to play around with using my desktop PC as a proxy and using SmoothWall before committing myself to a hardware solution.

[diem]

What's your laptop processor/memory/HD spec?

I've got Smoothwall running on a 486sx33/50MB/500MB - it'll even run on a 386 at a pinch! The main thing is RAM - 32MB minimum, and more is definitely good.

I'm having a hard time leaving it for a router with built-in firewall - I trust Smoothwall (regular updates as Linux vulnerabilities announced) but not so sure about firmware firewalls from home network equipment companies! However the concept of a totally silent, no moving parts network is sooo seductive...

[WolfUK]

Yan,

After a couple of attempts, a lot of swearing and then some investigation, it appears that SmoothWall will not run from a laptop (ie it will not use PCMCIA cards). There is a workaround where you install Linux and then install SmoothWall on a seperate partition but it's very complicated and seems to be far too much trouble! As a result I am initially looking into proxy software but I may also buy an old 486 and use that.

On the bright side, I am typing this on a wireless netBook! I'm not even going to pretend that I have configured security or anything else yet but the basic set up works.

More notes and comments as things progress ...

[diem]

Oh!

Sorry to have sold you a wrong'un Si :(

From what you say it sounds like you've asked appropriate questions on the smoothwall users mailing list, so fair comment.

Glad that its beginning to come together anyway..

[WolfUK]

Well today I invested £25 in a P100 from a local PC repair center so I now have a SmoothWall server up and running with 32 megs of RAM and an 800MB hard disk! It seems to be working well apart from a problem with the dial on demand not working but I'm looking into that (I'm guessing that it is something simple and I'm being dense!). The only major downside is that I have a full tower PC to 'hide' somewhere. :(

[diem]

Originally posted by WolfUK
The only major downside is that I have a full tower PC to 'hide' somewhere. :(
Yeah - mine's in the cupboard under the stairs. You should have seen the look on the cable installation guy's face when I told him I wanted the cable terminated in the cupboard :D He just couldn't understand that I'd only had cable installed for broadband, and have no interest in the telly :p

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by diem
You should have seen the look on the cable installation guy's face when I told him I wanted the cable terminated in the cupboard :D That's priceless! :D :D :D :D :D :D

Julie

[WolfUK]

Fantastic ... I can just imagine! :p

Well my next stage is looking into BT's Home Highway. My wife wants a second line so that she can occassionally use the phone and rather than having a second normal line installed this could be a good option ... I'd get a slightly faster internet connection and we can use the phone whilst we are on-line. It's not ideal but with no prospect of ADSL or cable in the near (or not so near) future it looks like the only way forward. :(