Electrostatic problem - unable to synch

[pcastric]

As noted in previous threads, I had to send my Palm M505 back to Palm repair centre in Toronto as it suffered from electrostatic and I could not synch.

I received a new (albeit refurbished) Palm today together with a new improved (that's what they said) cradle. I charged the Palm and was successful in synchronizing it - everything is back to normal (cross my fingers).

I had asked them what steps I should take to prevent the Palm getting electrostatic - they said to use the new cradle. I'm quite sure there are other ways to prevent electrostatic such as touching something metal in order to ground oneself. (I might add here that I carried my other Palm in a metal carrying case )

Anybody have any ideas?

[DrMud]

This is a subject that brings out the debators.

I know there are individuals that have had very bad luck with ESD and then there are folks like myself that have not experienced it. I live in a high humidity environment and very seldom experience any static. Others like yourself living in colder climates have the problem in spades. It seems to be related to the design of the universal connector and the USB hotsync circuit.
I have no real answer for you save to say, stay grounded, warm and moist....a good recommendation in general for good health.
Doc

[pcastric]

I guess your recommendation to stay grounded is the way to go.

As you noted, the electrostatic problem is a direct result of the cold snap we here in the great white north have been experiencing since the beginning of January. With average temperatures of -30 to -33 degrees celcius, most thermostats are jacked up which in turn produces nice warm but very dry conditions - excellent for static electricity. My wife and I were getting tired getting zapped each time we would turn on a light or touch something metal. I think its time to get the humidifier fixed!

Summer here brings very hot weather together with high humidity. Of course that means the central air get jacked up - a never ending saga!

As we say in french - Merci DrMud pour votre aide!

[djmangen]

Your environment is similar to mine. I too live in an environment where the furnace must be cranked up all winter, and heavy woolen sweaters are the norm. However, I also make a point of keeping the humidity as high as I possibly can and make a point of grounding myself before messing around with any electronics. I have not had any problem with electrostatic discharge with my 515. That's not to excuse the problems that exist with the 5xx series, but merely to note that we as users do contribute to the matter as well.

As for summer and air conditioning, I doubt that your AC will remove sufficient humidity from the air such that static is a problem then.

[irked]

All the static precautions are all well and good, as a workaround.

But might I recommend that anyone living in a dry, cold environment look into similar products from Sony, which (by reports so far) don't have the same problem.

[DrMud]

And associate of mine lost his SONY Clie to ESD last fall and SONY refused to deal with it. ALL Electronic equipment with external entry points are susceptable to ESD.
Doc

[JohnKes]

DrMud is right - ESD is 10,000 to 50,000 volts. Microcircuits are designed for 3-5 volts. They do not like getting exposed to ESD, no matter what brand.

[pcastric]

As noted previously, I returned my M505 to Palm repair. They sent me a refurbished M505 together with a new (supposedly) improved cradle. I noticed that the cradle did not have an "e" or "h" like my previous one and is much lighter than the old one. Also, they neglected to include a stylus with it - I emailed them advising them of this and am patiently awaiting delivery.

I immediately charged the Palm and successfully did a synchronization - everything seems back to normal.

I am therefore being extremely cautious not to subject my Palm to ESD, i.e. touching something metal in order to discharge any static electricity, not putting my Palm on anything metal, etc. Palm advised that I should only be using the new cradle. I've asked if their statement meant that I should put my Palm onto the cradle when not in use - their reply "use the new cradle". I guess I'll have to talk to a live human being - I'm convinced that they use standard reply templates.

I'm very curious to know how many times M505/M515 users have had to return their Palms because of ESD. Any guesses???

[djmangen]

I imagine the total number is quite high, if only because of all of the reports that are seen on assorted boards and also the fact that they have: a) acknowledged the situation, and b) developed/ publicized a couple of strategies -- of varying effectiveness -- for dealing with it.

Having said that, however, none of the approximately 20-25 people with whom I am acquainted who have Palms in the M5xx series -- mostly 505 and 515 -- have ever experienced this problem. While that is a small sample that is clearly biased both my circle of acquaintances, as well as by my geographic location -- that suggests an incidence rate of less than 5%. Of course, 5% (if we take that figure as the true incidence rate) would be far too high for any acceptable manufacturing process. A Six Sigma company would go crazy with that level of defects.

[DrMud]

I answer questions on four boards and I can tell you there are at least 30 Vx digitizer questions for every one 500 series ESD related problem.
I also have a fairly large group of folks in my area that are Palm powered. One group works for a large utility company and yet another works for a very large insurance company. I answer Palm related questions for them. Not one case ever.
I suspect that to some extent we who roam these boards are an out of the ordinary sample. If you total all the members of the four boards that I visit and we assume that there is no over lap I think the total is around 17,000. Brighthand is very large with 200 or 300 hundred members on at one time. That said the number represents a small fraction of Palm owners. Palm has sold more than 22 million units. Let us assume half are history, We have 11 million owners and 17,000 (many only one time users, and many like myself on four boards with 7 names.) but the percentage is still only 15. Only 15% of the owners and only a few of us have had the problem.
We tend to be users and in many cases aggressive users. I know people that think a Palm is only capable of being their phone book and calendar.
Doc

[pcastric]

For Palm to admit to the problem and providing some kind of help is a beginning.

The only sad thing about this incident is that Palm sent me a refurbished M505. When told of this, both my daughter and wife said that I should not have accepted a refurbished Palm and insist that they provide a brand new one seeing that the Palm I had returned was less than 3-months old.

Hopefully, this one will last a lot longer than the previous two - if not, its adios Palm - hello Sony!

Thanks DrMud and everyone for your continued help!

[DrMud]

I have purchased a couple or refurbs from Palm. One 505 and a 515. Both have been great units. They have new batteries and screens.
Best regards.
Doc

[pcastric]

I guess I spoke too soon about being careful with my new (albeit) refurbished M505.

Came home from work tonight, put my Palm onto new cradle to charge. Checked it after 30mins. to see how it was going. Went to turn it on and nothing happened. Had to do four soft resets before things came back. Tried to delete a game I uploaded a few days ago and got an fatal error message about memory manager. Tried to do a synchronization. Was unable - got the sam BS message - Palm cannot talk to computer!

Called Palm Repair in Toronto (long distance for me). Tech had me check a few things and guess what??? I'm (once again) the proud owner of an M505 with a bad case of ESD!!!!

Told the tech that this is the third M505 I've had since December 2002 and I'm getting very annoyed about the %$#^% thing.

Tech advised he would send me a new Palm as soon as I completed and faxed an "Advanced Product Replacement Authorization" form even though they have not received the one I have.

I assured him that "yes", I've been using the "new and improved" cradle they had sent me. I also let the tech know that I've been very, very cautious in avoiding static electricity by touching metal therefore grouding myself before going anywhere near my Palm.

I also stated to the tech that I check a number of discussions relating to this problem and have noted that Palm was supplying free of charge a card which contained applications to eliminate the EDS problem. He said this program was only available in the USA and not in Canada. I guess George W. Bush is getting back at us Canadian Palm owners for our Prime Minister's refusal to get involved in the Iraq campaign!

Hopefully, the next Palm (total of 4 since December 2002) I get will not fall to ESD - my patience is starting wear very very thin!!

[djmangen]

Originally posted by pcastric
Hopefully, the next Palm (total of 4 since December 2002) I get will not fall to ESD - my patience is starting wear very very thin!!

I almost did not post this reply, because I am quite certain that your patience is as thin as a razors edge, and I have had a few flames directed at me for some of my suggestions about the environment as a potential cause. With that as background, and rest assured that I am only making this as speculated thought/suggestion as opposed to asserting any fact, it seems very odd that you would run into 3 consecutive bad devices. If we assume that the odds of a bad Palm are 1 in a 100 (which I suspect is high), then getting three bad ones in a row looks like odds of 1 in a million. Either you are very unlucky, or something else is going on. Maybe you are that unlucky, but I have also noticed that these cases of SUDS appear to happen multiple times to the same people, while many others of us don't personally know anyone with those problems.

However, let's get to the point. Have you checked the electrical circuit that the Palm is plugged into. Is that circuit properly grounded, and is it receiving "clean" power? In addition to the circuit being grounded and providing clean power, is there a line conditioner and/or surge suppressor between the main circuit and the Palm? I know that most of us take it for granted, but even within a home -- especially older homes originally built when building codes were less stringent -- there are variations in the quality of the electricity that is received at various outlets. It all depends on the power company and the electrician who has done the wiring, and also whether or not there have been modifications that have been made over time.

I remember quite a few years ago I was having numerous problems with a 9-track tape drive that was connected to my office PC. The problem turned out to be that there was a radio station connected to the same circuit quite a ways up the line, but we were on the same master panel in the office building. RF signal from the radio station was bleeding back up the line and interfering with the write operations on the tape head. We solved this problem by isolating my offices onto a different panel. Problem fixed, but the frustration caused for both me, my clients, the building management, and the manufacturer of that drive was huge!

Note that in my situation that no other piece of equipment in the office displayed any problems whatsoever -- only that one tape drive. Even other tape drives that were built into the PCs for backup purposes were not hurt. It could be that your Palms are experiencing similar problems. I don't know if this is the case, but it might be worth looking into?

Good luck with your repeated problems.

[pcastric]

Thanks very much djmangen for your thoughts. Its great to be able to receive unbiased opinions from fellow Palm users instead of having to put up with manufacturer's BS - they must be mainlining Prozac!!!

Your raised a very good point regarding proper grounding. Looking back, I've noted that the majority of synchronizations were made here at home (I use one of our bedrooms as my office). I normally synch using my laptop which is plugged into a power bar. It does have a built in surge supressor and grounding. I just looked at it and the grounding light is not on. I will look into it and if the grounding light does not come on after I unplug/replug everything, I'm off to purchase another power bar (this is one is on the cheap side). Hopefully, that will do the trick.

I see you're from a cold climate also. This past winter was one of the coldest on record which means the termostat was jacked up pretty high - also noticed that there was a lot more instances of static electricity.

I was in a Staples outlet last night and spoke to a sales rep selling PDA's. When I mentioned both ESD and SUDS, the guy knew exactly what I was talking about. He said that he was not aware of anybody returning their M505/515's due to ESD or SUDS. He suggested that if the next Palm I get goes belly up, I should contact a senior person at Palm and explain what has happened to me. Who knows, they might even give me a good upgrade deal on a Tungsten.

In any case, I am patiently awaiting my (hopefully brand new) Palm - my luck they'll send me another refurbished.

I'll keep you posted on what happens.

Thanks again,

Regards!

[irked]

Originally posted by djmangen


I almost did not post this reply, because I am quite certain that your patience is as thin as a razors edge, and I have had a few flames directed at me for some of my suggestions about the environment as a potential cause. With that as background, and rest assured that I am only making this as speculated thought/suggestion as opposed to asserting any fact, it seems very odd that you would run into 3 consecutive bad devices. If we assume that the odds of a bad Palm are 1 in a 100 (which I suspect is high), then getting three bad ones in a row looks like odds of 1 in a million. Either you are very unlucky, or something else is going on. Maybe you are that unlucky, but I have also noticed that these cases of SUDS appear to happen multiple times to the same people, while many others of us don't personally know anyone with those problems.

However, let's get to the point. Have you checked the electrical circuit that the Palm is plugged into. Is that circuit properly grounded, and is it receiving "clean" power? In addition to the circuit being grounded and providing clean power, is there a line conditioner and/or surge suppressor between the main circuit and the Palm? I know that most of us take it for granted, but even within a home -- especially older homes originally built when building codes were less stringent -- there are variations in the quality of the electricity that is received at various outlets. It all depends on the power company and the electrician who has done the wiring, and also whether or not there have been modifications that have been made over time.

I remember quite a few years ago I was having numerous problems with a 9-track tape drive that was connected to my office PC. The problem turned out to be that there was a radio station connected to the same circuit quite a ways up the line, but we were on the same master panel in the office building. RF signal from the radio station was bleeding back up the line and interfering with the write operations on the tape head. We solved this problem by isolating my offices onto a different panel. Problem fixed, but the frustration caused for both me, my clients, the building management, and the manufacturer of that drive was huge!

Note that in my situation that no other piece of equipment in the office displayed any problems whatsoever -- only that one tape drive. Even other tape drives that were built into the PCs for backup purposes were not hurt. It could be that your Palms are experiencing similar problems. I don't know if this is the case, but it might be worth looking into?

Good luck with your repeated problems.

That's a good point about the clean power. I happen to live in an old building, so I might have some of that "dirty" power you mentioned. Is it possible to buy filters for AC outlets, or do I have to build my own? I've already got a surge suppressor.

[DrMud]

If the "grounded" light is not illuminated on the Power Strip it may indicate that the wall outlet is not grounded.
Recently I put a new APS BackUp in my wife's office at home. The new one had an indicator stating the outlet was not grounded. I called in a friend who does electrical work and sure enough there was no ground on that circuit. We drove and 8 ft copper rod in the ground outside and drilled through the wall into the outlet box. It is grounded now.

Sorry to hear of the newest disaster. I have no idea why you have had this many. I am the Palm Tech support for about 125 m500s mostly 505 and 515 units. Not one has been affected. We have had a number of fatal errors related to software. All games by the way. But all of the problems have been resolvable over the phone generally with a reset of one sort or the other.
Doc

[JohnKes]

Good point about clean power. My house (built in 1955) is only half modernized - half the house has proper 3-prong outlets, bedrooms have original outlets. I use an APC surge protector on my PC and PDA chargers.

I went with APC from experience. There was an electrical problem at my office several years ago. Several cheap surge protectors caught fire because of it! My computer had an APC, and sounded off a pop. I spent a few minutes looking for the source of the sound. Since nothing happened to my computer (not even a flicker), I had no idea that there were small fires all around me! I finally stood up after I smelled the smoke. My day's work was unaffected. I was an APC convert that day.

[pcastric]

After reading previous message, I checked the power bar that my Palm cradle was plugged in. The surge light was on but the ground light was not. I unplugged and plugged the power bar to see what would happen - ground light still out. Tried pluggin it into another socket - same thing.

Went to Staples and bought a new Belkin power bar with surge suppressor and ground. Plugged the new one in - ground light is on.

Hopefully the new power bar will eliminate my experiences with ESD. Keep your fingers crossed!

[pcastric]

Well I finally received my (4th) Palm M505 today.

The $65,000 question is how long this one will last until it becomes another victim of ESD or SUDS!

Anyone want to make a prediction???

I immediately put the Palm on the new cradle that Palm had sent me in order to charge the battery. I was successful in performing a sychronization - looks as though everything is back to normal.

The next order of business is to pack up the old Palm and ship it back to Palm (I have three weeks to do that otherwise they will charge me the cost of a Palm). Palm included pre-paid return shipping - that's the least they could do for all the problems I have had!


:)

[JohnKes]

pcastric,
Can you take an ohmmeter to the case of your m505 (either the old one or the new one)? I am trying to figure out whether the front and back shells are electrically connected. Touch one probe to the front of the case and the other probe to the back of the case. If it reads <100 ohms, they are connected. If it reads more than that, they are not connected - this would be a design issue that makes it highly susceptible to ESD.

[irked]

Originally posted by pcastric
Well I finally received my (4th) Palm M505 today.

The $65,000 question is how long this one will last until it becomes another victim of ESD or SUDS!

Anyone want to make a prediction???

:)

I'll take a piece of that action!

Given that the weather is, grudgingly, warming up I'd give your if-you-don't-know-it's-refurbed-it's-new-to-you m515 until september this year.

Or until the next frost, whichever comes first.

:)


By the way, the latest workaround for the ESD problem on the 515 is sure to work. If you keep the 515 wrapped an anti-static bag, locked in a damp, wooden box, and you only use it after you have soldered yourself to a grounded surface (like a radiator) and sprayed a fine mist of water all around yourself, the 515 shouldn't give you any more problems. Hey, a little precaution on your part can save Palm's engineers literally minutes of work!

Your other option is to move to Florida, where percent humidity is perpetually 74%. That will clear up any static problems.








I'd better unsubscribe from this thread-- I'm just getting mean!

[pcastric]

Moving to Florida is exactly what my wife wants to do. (She together with one of my daughters and three grandsons were in Florida for the March break - me - I had to travel to Edmonton, Alberta for a few days - average temperature while there was a nice -29C (that's -20.2F)

I checked my emails and found that I received an email from Palm Repair wanting to know my opinions on their service department's handling of my case and other issues by completing a 2-page survey.

The majority of the questions were rated 1 to 10 - 1 being mediocre while 10 being excellent. If it were possible to enter minus 10000000000 I would have. Just reading their questionnaire got my blood boiling and ready to pop a few prozac pills!

One question asked how I would rate their technical staff - I was honest and stated that their tech staff (the ones that I spoke to over the past three months) all knew what I was talking about and did try to resolve my issues.

My favourite was the question wanting to know if I would recommend the purchase of Palm stuff to any of my friends or acquaintances - here too, you had to select from 1 to 10 - I guess they didnt want people to write down exactly what they thought.

Thank goodness there was a question where you could enter your comments - looked like it had a 500-character maximum! That's where I "let it all hang out". I hope to hell a real live person reads my comments and has the right business sense to either call or write to see exactly what I so annoyed at.

As for my little contest, I'm counting the days until the 4th one breaks down - keep your fingers crossed!!!

[pcastric]

Finlly received my replacement Palm yesterday. Was able to synchronize - everything looks OK (cross your fingers)!

[djmangen]

I hope that this one works out well for you. It certainly sounds like you have taken all of the necessary precautions.

djm

[pcastric]

Thanks for the encouraging words!

There's a small business here in Ottawa that repairs the complete line of Palms. The guy that owns the business runs it from his home.

I went to see him last night and he was quite surprised at the BS that I've gone through. He told me that he has had to repair a number of ESD/SUDS related problems via the unplug the battery and plugging it back in system. (I bought the wrench necessary to do this). I told him that I would use the wrench once the warranty expired on my Palm - opening the Palm immediately voids your warranty.

I mentioned to him that I had received a number of memory and fatal errors which in the end prevented me from synchronizing. He said that if you start getting a lot of memory errors, it is normally caused by a defective motherboard. He also said that he could replace the motherboard in my M505 with a M515 motherboard for $170.00 (Cnd). I told him that sounded very interesting but hope I would not require his services for the near future.

I sent back the defective Palm today via pre-paid courier (the least they could do). The deal is that they Palm must receive the deffective Palm within 3-weeks or else they will bill my credit card with an amount equal to purchasing a new Palm.

[pcastric]

Its been 8 whole days since I received my 4th 505 (albeit "refurbished") since December 2002 and have not suffered any problems!!!!

Like I noted in earlier threads, I'm going for a Guiness record!!!

If anyone is interested, here's their URL for the local company that repairs Palms:

http://www.palmmediccanada.com/

[Quickroute]

Just received my 3rd M515 replacement from ESD damage yesterday. Signed up today for extended warranty as tomorrow is 1 year anniversary of purchase so fully expect ESD to ruin this one as well.:confused:

[pcastric]

Hello Quickroute,

In a strange way, I am glad to see that I'm not the only one who has suffered big time with ESD. When something like this happens to you, one starts to believe either the whole thing is a conspiracy or you are getting paranoid to the degree where you believe Prozac is the answer!

In my case, I have taken every precaution in order that I dont zap my Palm, i.e. making sure that I discharge any static electricity by touching something metal, etc. - it seems to be working.

I looked into purchasing the extended warranty. Unfortunately, the extended warranty program is only available to US citizens - I live in Canada.

ESD scrambles communications between your Palm and your computer - it stops you from synchronizing through the USB. I have read that Palm USA will send you an SD card that will back up your Palm and will drain the battery therefore reseting the USB. I tried getting one from Palm but they told me that this program (like the extended warranty) was only available in the US. Go figure.

Keep the faith and dont take No! for an answer!!!!