New Netbook Pro

[cangiante]

NEW NETBOOK PRO
A brief encounter

Foreword: this is going to be a long post. So please sit back and relax. You will find both good and bad news, as well as a proposal from myself. Here is the full story:

Last Thursday May 8th I went to the mobile force forum in Milan (www.mobileforce.it).
Psion Teklogix was there as a gold sponsor, together with some "preferred partners" as solution providers and the like.
It was a kind of small fair, and the same were the exhibitors' booth. However there was a big novelty, at least for me: it was the NEW NETBOOK PRO!

I arrived there just half an hour before the actual end of the forum. No much time left for hanging around, so I headed right to the target. The Psion officials were busy with visitors, but they were glad to let me have a closer look at the new toy:

* The displayed nB PRO was actually a demo machine, just for exhibition purpose, therefore it had no batteries (only AC).
* It has the same size than the original one. there is a minor change in terms of external colours which rely more on silver grey shades for a more technological outlook (kind of cosmetics, I would say).
* telephone plug socket (note: is this just a plug or actually a sign of an internal modem? Only time will tell...)
* earplug mini-jack
* rs232
* PC card slot
* something like a CF slot (or actually sort of, as it was a different slot - smaller - if compared to the current one)
* the stylus slot was moved aside so that it will not jam with the PC card
* there was also a new socket which was extremely similar to a USB one, as far as I could see.

Once opened, the nB PRO revealed other differences such as the following ones:

* no more switchers: I mean I did not see anymore the two switchers positioned above the keyboard (one for switching on/off, the other for extracting the stylus).
* the central netBook plate (the one that is actually missing on the MalayBooks) was absent and replaced by another one featuring "netBook Pro" which was located on the right side. the new logo shares the same yellow and black official Psion Teklogix colours.
* the screen seemed to be slightly wider than the standard nB, at a first glance; Probably that is not the actual point. the real fact is that the "grey icons" which served as shortcuts for the most important apps, were not included anymore.
* If you are wondering about screen visibility on the outside, we could not check it as there were no outdoor plugs for AC.

* the display proudly showed windows media player (no movie was actually available for a field trial)
* no trial documents were available.
* Last but not least, as you will have probably understood, there was clear evidence that the OS used on it was MS CE.net (4.1 version, as they would later told me).
* Moreover, there was no sign of an EPOC (or Symbian) icon.

At that time, The Italian Psion officials were still busy but an English-speaking one (He was actually Canadian) saw the scene and went to talk to me for a while.

Here is what I managed to know:

* the new nB PRO has obviously a newer processor, featuring Intel X-Scale™ Technology. Unfortunately, I don't remember which one.
* the OS will be only Win CE.net! no dual boot or any other option to choose from (No Symbian 5.0, 6.0 or 7.0 on this machine).
* For hard-to-die Epoc fans perhaps it may have a version of the Epoc emulator installed (but this was what this gentleman ended up with saying after hearing my disappointment and therefore is not yet for sure).
* One day it may even be released a Linux OS version, but nothing is for sure at the moment. (note of the writer: by surfing on Internet, you will easily find evidence of contacts between top Psion technical officials and Linux developers).
* it is bluetooth compatible (I heard someone behind me saying something like "no win CE.net? no bluetooth!")
* P.T. is due to start accepting orders in the next few months (probably even June or July) for delivery in the months of august and September.
* Price: nothing is for certain at the moment (rumours I heard at the forum estimate the final price of the nB Pro as being higher than 2/300 Euros if compared to its predecessor. IMHO this is part of the price to pay for having MS Windows on it (note of the writer: prices offered by industrial distributors to enterprises and professionals may be lower or anyway differ due to a much wider discount scale range).

According to our brief talk, the apparent reason for adopting Win CE.net is based on the fact that this OS is currently the most widespread in the enterprise market, on which P.T. decided to focus all its resources.

Anyway, this Canadian gentleman demonstrated to be willing to listen at least to a part of my story. I personally stressed the importance of a reliable, instant-on machine, capable of a 9 till 5 use. He was even amazed at the glance of my Extras bar (he would even refer to me as a "power user"... I wonder what it could happen if he only knew some of the sheer enthusiasts writing on psionplace.com!). He also showed appreciation for my personal support for the original nB which is a really 100% mobile office for myself (the time spent with a standard PC is really low on my part)..

Moreover, I told him about the Psionplace.com community as well as the Epoc Digest one, which I am not sure he was really aware of. I even mentioned the great expectations that many of us have about the nB II (from now on we will call it nB PRO). I finally recommended him to evaluate the wide number of potential customers represented by the loyal standard nB users willing - or at least considering - to upgrade to a much more powerful machine without actually changing OS.

Time was over then. We shook each other's hands and before of saying goodbye to me he kindly said that if one day the nB Pro would have also an EPOC option this might be due to my persuasive defence.

It was only a few moments later that I was told by a friend that this gentleman was one of the five vice presidents of Psion Teklogix, actually dealing with the technical side of things.

Well, I would not just stare and expect such happy ending. That's why I decided to tell the whole story to the fellow Psionplace community and ask a few questions about this matter.

Some may consider this post a kind of journalistic scoop. I suppose that others here in psionplace already knew this fact instead. Therefore, I prefer to think that this is probably the last chance we do have to let Psion Teklogix listen to our opinion. So why don't we make a poll? If anyone has something to say in proposal, please drop a line below here.

*** Now, what do you think about writing an electronic petition to Psion Teklogix to care about a EPOC OS version of the nB PRO?

*** what about restoring the initial project of a dual boot? this option would let every user choose the best possible system for its needs.

If anybody agrees, please expose your reasons. should anybody else be in favour of the win CE.net OS, please explain why.

As to myself, I would really love to maintain the EPOC OS and wish I could be able to use both new apps such as the Grandrapid Java browser and old ones like the Epoc VNC with a much more powerful machine. I don't really see the advantage of having Win CE.net in order to get bluetooth compatibility. I'd rather dream of a nB PRO capable of resisting up to 10 hours of usage with an always connected WI-FI/GPRS PC CARD inside. Am I actually asking too much? Please let me know.

[Lewis]

WOW!... Well done, Cangiante and thanks for a fascinating read!

Sounds like a very interesting specification and good, at least, to know the netBook is considered sufficiently successful to warrant development... but, in the process Teklogix are about to discard it's finest feature! Madness!

Aside from anything else, how do Teklogix expect other platform manufacturers to have faith in Symbian, if they renounce it for their flagship product?... maybe, the links with Symbian, via Psion as we remember it, are not so important for Teklogix and their perceived corporate customer-base... but they'd be negating a significant upgrade path for existing Symbian/netBook users.

Still, sounds like you 'buttonholed' just the right man - could they really be unaware of the Psion Place community, etc, and what it represents?...

If this is a last chance to influence netBook-Symbian co-existence, then surely we have to co-ordinate some sort of collective voice?... moderators?...

L

[fladda]

An interesting post on the new Netbook Pro. I bet that Psion Tek has wished that they'd asked you to sign an NDA;-)

With respect to using the operating system from the evil empire, you have to look at this from Psion Tek's point of view. EPOC has moved on substantially from ER5. Symbian 7 is really now an operating system for mobile phones and small PDAs. Getting all of the 'desktop' functionality that exists on the current Netbook back into Symbian 7 would be a *lot* of work and cost a lot of cash.

Psion Tek's core market has now changed, and the volume of future sales might never recoup the costs of developing an updated EPOC operating system for the Netbook Pro. Also Teklogix as a company already comes from an MS operating system background.

That said, it must be very hard for manyat Psion to use Microsoft instead of EPOC for a new Psion machine. However without the volume of consumer sales, Psion can no longer afford the 'luxury' of developing their own operating system for each new model.

Ralph (typing on his Netbook in the bath).

[Stargazer]

Thanks for the information Cangiante - as you say a mixture of good and bad news! Certainly on the hardware side it would appear that Teklogix have taken on board a number of the issues of the previous Netbook - but having CE.net only really does throw a spanner in the works. Having to pay extra for what is, IMHO, an inferior OS would be truly galling.

I would be in full favour of a petition but cannot muster too much optimism of swaying Teklogix at this stage - they do not really seem to see the consumer market as significant.

[MikeW]

Sounds interesting, if Psion are willing to take into account loyal Psion users, they need to consider the following.

Not upgrade to latest version of EPOC as there is no software, nor will any be developed for such a small user base, EPOC 5 has lots of software.

Provide an EPOC emulator under Windows CE, this should allow most of the existing EPOC software to work without requiring special WINs versions.

Maybe opportunities to use all the devices available under Windows CE from the EPOC emulator.

MikeW

[comical_ali]

What a great scoop - nice one.

Anyhoo, I can't help thinking that we may be missing the point a little. Most people who would initialy buy a 'netbook pro' would presumably be current psion users - so surely it's in P/T's interest to listen the PSION user base.

Perhaps P/T / SYMBIAN would be prepared to opensource ER5 and let the community develop it's own OS - a la LINUX ;-) This would certainly avoid a great deal of their financial outlay whilst we still get an OS choice other than the that supplied by Bills Bloat Ware. ( I am not microsofts greatest fan )

Just a few thoughts I had to get of me chest - i'll go and calm down a bit now.

[Beakynet]

When I first heard about the new Netbook, I suspected that this would be the case: EPOC not supported. The thing is I will not buy a machine because of the machine, I buy it because of the Operating system. How much would it cost to make the new Netbook dual boot? I would guess much less then the money to make from the offering. I WOULD buy the machine if it ran EPOC 5 and had stickers for the silk buttons (or graphical ones). I would then pay for drivers for USB, bluetooth etc. They could see how many units they sell for Symbian OS 5 and then make the drivers or provide support on writing the drivers. PT are short sighted if they can't see that there is money to make here at little expense from them - unless the processor can't support the current build (158) but then the Netpad does!

[cshandley]

Hi

As I've been one of the people hoping for the Netbook Pro, this is certainly
disappointing news. I do not hold much hope for PsionT changing their mind, if
their major customer base (those companies who already bought a load of Netbooks
for some project) have not convinced them.

While I would prefer to see the EPOC v5 OS running natively on the Netbook Pro
(and it wouldn't take that much work if no drivers were written for USB/etc), it
may be easier for PsionT to port the EPOC emulator to WinCE - which has the
advantage it would be much easier to support new hardware since WinCE would
handle that.

It was a good point that EPOC emulator running on an ARM processor would not
need special (WINS) binaries, which is the only thing convincing me that the
emulator route is viable.

As for whether I would buy a Netbook Pro; that is an impossible decision without
knowing more:

Is the screen good outdoors (transflective?)
Is the battery life better or worse?
Does it have a built-in modem / USB / bluetooth?
What speed is the CPU?
Is the audio hardware improved? (e.g. 16-bit)
Is the PCMCIA slot 32-bit (cardbus)?
Can the CF slot still handle an IBM Microdrive?

Regards,
Chris Handley

P.S. Hopefully I will find that Acer Tablet PC makes a good "slightly bigger &
more fragile" Netbook equivalent using the emulator. That would then
future-proof me against any further stupid (from my POV) decisions by PsionT.

[MartinMaxwell]

Well I would certainly had hoped for a Unicode version of Symbian OS, but with the current netBook UI intact. With Symbian OS 7.x, you would get both Bluetooth and USB support. But I guess no point in wishing when this seems to be the direction PsionT is heading.

Great report though!

I would certainly agree and contribute to a petition to both Psion D and Psion T.

And if it is true that the screen overall is wider, why not let the silkscreen buttons be softcoded, as the ToolBar already is.

[MartinMaxwell]

>>>>Not upgrade to latest version of EPOC as there is no software, nor will any be developed for such a small user base, EPOC 5 has lots of software.<<<<

If you let a new netBook be restricted by ER5, e.g.
- no USB
- no Bluetooth
- no Unicode (and thus continued lack of compatibility with Symbian OS phones)
- no Fast Infrared
- no possibilities for phone integration
what's the point of upgrading to netBook Pro in the first place?

The current one is good enough.

[markdeppe]

Count me in on a lobby of psion for the netbook pro to support epoc :-) thanks for the great report.

[diem]

Great scoop cangiante!

Yes, I'd sign the petition; the fact that you spoke to a company director should NOT be underestimated. I support the proposal of petitioning for dual-boot; we have more chance of convincing Teklogix of this I feel!

Everyone has already said the important things, but for the record:

Teklogix have gone with WinCE 'cos that's what they've always used and that's where their skills are. The netBook only runs EPOC because Psion bought Teklogix to build an industrial-spec device for them.

IMO, ER7 is the way to go - Unicode plus better hardware support - there's no way we'll convince Teklogix to go with an obsolete OS, no matter how solid we think it is!

If netBook Pro is WinCE only, I will not be buying one, nor recommending it to my organisation.

[busted5mx]

It's all been said, but I just want to throw in my vote- if a new netbook comes out that does not have epoc/symbian as the OS, I *will not* be interested. When I was looking for a replacement for my 5mx, I was very close to getting a jornada 720/820, but I could never quite bring myself to put up with Microsoft's crap. In the end, the OS won, and obviously I'm not the only one that feels that way. Linux would be *marginally* acceptable, as long as it's well done (easy to use, nice EPOC-like user interface). If the new netbook is windows-only, my next netbook will be a used 12" Aluminum Powerbook :(

[pthwaite]

I'd sign it, heck if I could get the Epoc ER5 system to run on a PC I'd use it. The emulator is fine in it's own way but is a bit tricky to use for everyday use I find.

The point is the Epoc system is so stable compared to the Windows systems so a Dual boot version with inbuilt file convertors would be wonderful.

Howard

[ehasbrouck]

I think we need to be realistic in what any of us asks Psion to do. As long-term users or new converts, we wouldn't be on this forum if we didn't like Psion. In and of itself, the existence of a few loyal users won't sway Psion. We can blame it on bad marketing, but the fact is that Psion has already (presumably) decided that there aren't enough Psion/Epoc users to support development of new Epcoc OS / Psion hardware devices.

Our first task, obviously, is to convince Psion that the failure of the ER5 devices to make money is not due to the ER5 OS; indeed, the OS is one of the best features, and the most distinguishing. (The form factor of the Psion 5 is unique, but there are other devices similar in form factor to the netBook. Inferior, IMHO, but similar.) So we need to get it across to Psion -- from user experience -- that a shift from ER5 to WinCE won't magically save netBook sales.

More importantly, though, we need to make a case that there are enough potential users for each piece of the puzzle for it to make sense to develop and support, even if there aren't enough customers to warrant it just for us ER5/netBook users. IMHO, here's what it takes:

(1) Give the option of Symbian 7 dual boot (with WinCE) on the netBook Pro. (ER5 is a dead and, since no way are there going to be enough new userrs to supprt continued software development. Already many new apps are Symbian only, with no ER5 version.) This makes sense because it could give netBook Pro buyers ready access to a wide range of software not available on other competing Windows or WinCE devices.

(2) Develop an optional add-on for Symbian 7 to allow ER5 apps to run under Symbian 7 (just as even the latest Windows version still can run all DOS apps). This would be a one-time cost justified not just for the netBook, but in order to jump-start the available software for the much larger number of Symbian smartphones by adding all the legacy ER5 apps.

(3) Develop an add-on for Symbian 7 to support VGA displays. This would also be a one-time task, and would make sense because, similarly, it could enhance the Symbian platform, not just serve the netBook, as phones get smarter and displays improve.

Symbian 7 OS, and Symbian 7 apps, will be sustained by smartphones. The netBook hardware will (Psion believes) be sustained by Win CE. Given those facts, the list above is the minimum additional we need from Psion to preserve the value to Psion of their legacy devices, OS, apps, and user community -- and keep us happy.

[Lewis]

Well said, everyone!... 24-hours worth of articulate, considered & rational contributions... so what are we going to do about it?

Clearly, there's no guarantee, or even likelihood, of Psion Tek taking heed of our opinions/wishlist, but there's certainly even less prospect if they're unaware of our arguments or, even, of our existence - as potential customers as well as enthusiasts... the irony is though, that I, for one, have only become an enthusiast precisely because the OS, above all, is so damn good!

...anyone know a friendly corporate lobbyist?... ideally a Psion-owning one!

L

[netBook4ever]

I got curious about the new netbook pro so I called my local distributor.

This was his reply:
LCD:
NEC-STN v NETBOOKPRO TFT
STN, will fall behind in the following ways:
i) Comparably poorer contrast
ii) Poorer brightness
iii) Pooer performance under a wider variety of lighting conditions
iv) Pixel response time is slower and therefore not many moving images.

NEC:- 640 x 240 Half VGA v NETBOOK PRO - 800 x 600 SVGA

SCREEN SIZE:
The dimentions are similar but the actual figures are not available yet. APX. NETBOOK PRO Viewing area 170mm x 127mm

MEMORY:
NEC Contains 64 (possible) SDRAM and CF Slot
NETBOOK PRO contains 128 MB SDRAM (I don't know if it is possible of it is the standard)

Thats all I got so far. I asked them to schedule a meeting with me when they get a demo unit :-)

netbook4ever

[MartinMaxwell]

>>>Our first task, obviously, is to convince Psion that the failure of the ER5 devices to make money is not due to the ER5 OS; indeed, the OS is one of the best features, and the most distinguishing. So we need to get it across to Psion -- from user experience -- that a shift from ER5 to WinCE won't magically save netBook sales. <<<

Very well said indeed!

>>>(1) Give the option of Symbian 7 dual boot (with WinCE) on the netBook Pro. (ER5 is a dead and, since no way are there going to be enough new userrs to supprt continued software development. Already many new apps are Symbian only, with no ER5 version.) This makes sense because it could give netBook Pro buyers ready access to a wide range of software not available on other competing Windows or WinCE devices.<<<

Agreed, Symbian OS v7 with UIN (User Interface netBook) instead of UIQ (User Interface Quartz) is the way to go. UIN would be closely based on the current ER5/EIKON one in terms of look, feel, style and behaviour.

>>>(2) Develop an optional add-on for Symbian 7 to allow ER5 apps to run under Symbian 7 (just as even the latest Windows version still can run all DOS apps). <<<

This would be very easy to do with OPL and Java apps, but perhaps not practical for C++ applications, as they are compiled to the CPU in question. Allegedly the netBook Pro has Intel Xscale in lieu of anything ARM. In any case most 3rd party netBook apps are written in OPL anyway.

Furthermore, an alpha version of OPL has just been released for Symbian OS 6.1 (Series 60) and another is in the works for Symbian OS 7.0 (UIQ).

>>>(3) Develop an add-on for Symbian 7 to support VGA displays. This would also be a one-time task, and would make sense because, similarly, it could enhance the Symbian platform, not just serve the netBook, as phones get smarter and displays improve.<<<

People from Symbian who I have been in touch with have already acknowledged that moving UIN onto Symbian OS v7 would be a trivial matter. This is because in Symbian the various UIs (e.g. UIN, UIQ/Quartz, Series 60/Pearl and Series 80/Crystal) are very well separated from the OS.

>>> Symbian 7 OS, and Symbian 7 apps, will be sustained by smartphones. The netBook hardware will (Psion believes) be sustained by Win CE. Given those facts, the list above is the minimum additional we need from Psion to preserve the value to Psion of their legacy devices, OS, apps, and user community -- and keep us happy. <<<

Exactly!!! I have a feeling those Canadians in Psion T might not be fully aware (key word here is 'fully') of what is happening in the market place outside of North America. Symbian has already passed both Palm and anything Win CE/PPC in terms of unit sales. It is just a matter of a very short time before Symbian is penetrating the enterprise market as well.

For the first time in a very long time for us Psion users: time is on our side!!!

cheers
Martin

[diem]

>>>Our first task, obviously, is to convince Psion that the failure of the ER5 devices to make money is not due to the ER5 OS; indeed, the OS is one of the best features, and the most distinguishing. So we need to get it across to Psion -- from user experience -- that a shift from ER5 to WinCE won't magically save netBook sales. <<<
As I understand it, Psion T's (predominately enterprise) customers kept saying of netBook "Yeah, we really like it, but do you do a WinCE version" :rolleyes:

Its sad, but I am reminded of the old phrase 'No-one ever got fired for choosing IBM'; these days its 'No-one ever got fired for choosing Microsoft' i.e. its safe, something they know; no thought at all given to what works, or what's better. However...
Exactly!!! I have a feeling those Canadians in Psion T might not be fully aware (key word here is 'fully') of what is happening in the market place outside of North America. Symbian has already passed both Palm and anything Win CE/PPC in terms of unit sales. It is just a matter of a very short time before Symbian is penetrating the enterprise market as well.
I agree with you here Malcolm - I think this should be part of the petition; improve Teklogix' sight of the march of Symbian.

[MartinMaxwell]

>>>I agree with you here Malcolm -<<<

Thanks James :-)

[ktkawabe]

Hi all,

1. Petition wouldn't hurt. I support that.

2. It's a kind of urban legend that Symbian V7 and such are for phones and not for "desktop-like" use. Everything that was there in ER5 is found in ER6 or 7 as far as the OS is concerned. Symbian 7 may seem to you as a phone OS, but that's because of the user interface (like UIQ) and the application suite shipped by the hardware vendors (like Nokia and SE). ER5-like user interface under newer Symbian OS, called TechView, is still maintained as I wrote somewhere in this forum, and you can see the screenshot in Symbian web site:
http://www.symbian.com/developer/techlib/v70docs/SDL_v7.0/doc_source/QuickStart/Emulators.html
If they stick to TechView, that reduces the application-level porting cost and time (you'll understand if you ported something to ER6 or 7).

My fear is that even people in PsionT are caught by this urban legend.

3. They have to get license for newer Symbian OS from Symbian if they go for it. I don't know the pricing, though.
Also it might well be that PsionT has to hire more people just to support newer Symbian thing on nB pro.
And of course they have to keep ER5 guys anyway, to support existing customers.

Nevertheless I think it's better for PsionT to take newer OS because of the availability of the developers and tools, plus better hardware support, all of which would make it easier for them to offer customized solution for cooporations.

4. I miss the application compatibility with ER5 if they go for ER7. That's better than nothing I'd say, though. The real point for me is if I really care if small computers as functional as or better than netBook is going to be produced and sold by somebody.

More on this later.
Regards,
Keita

[diem]

Originally posted by MartinMaxwell
>>>I agree with you here Malcolm -<<<

Thanks James :-)

D'oh :D

Sorry Martin ;)

[MonkeyBoy]

Unfortunately I'm going to have to agree with much of what Fladda had to say on this one. I dont think that Teklogix have the resources or will to develop a version of the Symbian OS 7 for the new Netbook (look how long it took to finally get TCP/IP support). Although there is a version of the Symbian OS 7 for the Intel XScale architecture, I cant see Teklogix investing the necessary time or money, when they are able to use WinCE off the shelf.

If Teklogix is unwilling, then I cant really see how a version of Symbian 7 for the new Netbook will be developed, unless either another Company specifically sets out to undertake such a project, which I think is pretty unlikely, or a version developed for another PDA works on the Netbook out of the box.

I thinks its looking very likely that its the end of the Netbook Epoc/Symbian relationship. Which may mean we'll have to look to the wacky 'work for nuthin' Linux lot for a decent stable OS.

I want to try to remain optimistic that Teklogix will have a change of heart because they realise their is a demand or Epoc 5 will go open source, but deep down I fear the worst :(

[markdeppe]

As part of the petition can I put in a big plea for what ever the move that in one swift easy IR point or PC sync it is possible to transfer and convert all our current files on the netbook. I could never face redoing my data base, or agenda and all the epoc word files.

I find it very strange that it appears the Director of psion does not know of Psionplace boards and similar, no wonder they fail if they do not follow and listen to their users, I always felt if I were to run psion one of the first things I would do would be to set up a forum like this for constant feedback to have my finger on the pulse of the users.

[martyscholes]

Originally posted by MartinMaxwell
>>>(2) Develop an optional add-on for Symbian 7 to allow ER5 apps to run under Symbian 7 (just as even the latest Windows version still can run all DOS apps). <<<

This would be very easy to do with OPL and Java apps, but perhaps not practical for C++ applications, as they are compiled to the CPU in question. Allegedly the netBook Pro has Intel Xscale in lieu of anything ARM. In any case most 3rd party netBook apps are written in OPL anyway.

Nitpicking, I know, but it does play into this. The Xscale is a successor to the strongarm, which was an ARM based CPU developed by ARM and DEC.

http://www.e-insite.net/electronicnews/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA50209

So yes, the Xscale is ARM based.

[fladda]

Originally posted by martyscholes


Nitpicking, I know, but it does play into this. The Xscale is a successor to the strongarm, which was an ARM based CPU developed by ARM and DEC.

http://www.e-insite.net/electronicnews/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA50209

So yes, the Xscale is ARM based.

Indeed RiscOS was the very first operating system that was written specifically for the ARM processor. RiscOS runs on the XScale, the StrongARM, 7500, 710, 610, ARM3, ARM2 and others.

Most 32-bit Netbook executables that run on the StrongARM (i.e SA-1100) should run OK on the XScale as far as I know., assuming that the Netbook Pro has a similar machine architecture.

Ralph

[ktkawabe]

5. It doesn't help much to say "I'd buy if you put this and that" when it actually takes 4 man-year, while they are considering to immediately drop EPOC on a product that is to be released soon. Probably it's better to drop things that are technically unreasonable.

6. For this reason, I agree with Martin that binary compatibility with the ER5 is impractical (basically because of the different libraries). If possible at all, the compatibility layer is more a work for OS vendor (Symbian) with real man-hour than for a licensee (PsionT) with pressing deadline.

7. Ditto for emulator on WinCE, let alone the binary compatibility between the emulator on WinCE and the real device.Originally posted by MonkeyBoy
I cant see Teklogix investing the necessary time or money, when they are able to use WinCE off the shelf.I agree. They've made WinCE work on this hardware, while probably nothing is there for Symbian yet. But asking wouldn't hurt.

[ktkawabe]

8. PsionT might want to look at the number for some other player in the "niche market" that they have left.

Linux Zaurus SL-C700 is a clamshell device from Sharp only sold in Japan (exports by independent shops are negligible). Despite some problems, it seems to be well accepted by businesses and hobbyists alike (meaning they buy despite their loud complaints). It was confirmed by one of Sharp officials that they've been producing 20,000 units per month since the initial launch of the product.
(source for this number (Japanese):
http://biztech.nikkeibp.co.jp/wcs/leaf/CID/onair/biztech/pc/247247)

9. My not-so-encouraging memory:
Back in 1998 when Psion still didn't officially exist in Japan, the Japanese Psion users organized a public "Questionnaires and Answers" for Psion users and non-users alike. Approximately 200 entries, about 70 of which from Psion users and the rest from non-users, were put together in the end. This was sent to Psion as a kind of market research, to encourage them to sell their products in Japan.
http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~jazzman/eng/index_e.html

The situation was much the same. Many knew there was little hope, but organizing that wouldn't have hurt, and we did that. We handed (literally) the result to then the Regional Director of Psion PLC Asia Pacific, when he visited Tokyo in 99. Though many of us who attended the meeting had rather interesting discussions with the Regional Director, not to mention some demos and beers, nothing happened afterwards (though it might have very remotely affected the release of Japanese 5mx Pro years later). Nevertheless I've never had any regret for joining that plea.

Cheers,
Keita

[donkeyontheedge]

There was a really interesting article in this weeks PC Week (I think) which had an interview with one of the top Symbian directors.

He was basically saying that given the uptake of digital camera phones, manufacturers are considering consigning the "phone handset" to the history books - you don't need it if you are holding the phone away from your face most of the time with say a bluetooth headset.

So, combining this with the fact that most PDA users go out and buy a keyboard for the PDA, what about the Netbook Pro with Symbian OS7, bluetooth for connecting to a headset and a "dumb handset" which is just a phone keypad and a digital camera, also connecting via bluetooth. The nbpro can use one of those PCMCIA cards with a phone SIM for GPRS connectivity.

You then have all the bits you need for a full office. You can buy the nbpro first and upgrade the system to be phone enabled later if you wish.

This would be plenty of reason to put Symbian OS7 onto the nbpro - I'd buy one tomorrow!

I can just imagine showing off my credit card sized "phone" which connects to my "little computer" in my briefcase!

John :D

[cshandley]

Hello all,

While I would love to see an all singing & dancing Symbian OS (ER7) running on
the Netbook, it simply isn't going to happen when PsionT are already intending
to dump EPOC for WinCE.

We must try to be realistic or PsionT will simply dismiss us :-(

What we need to understand is WHY they are dumping it. The answer is clearly
that their market (their customer base) has more interest in WinCE than EPOC,
partly because lots of software companies are either able to write new software
for WinCE (because they know WinCE) or they have already ported their Windows
programs to WinCE.

So why should PsionT port EPOC/Symbian OS to their Netbook Pro? Whatever the
answer, it MUST be cost-effective; i.e. the cost of porting must be less than
the extra sales of Netbooks that it generates.

Since we do not know all information about PsionT's perspective, we are not the
ones who can judge this for sure, so I strongly suggest we make several
realistic proposals to PsionT. Here are my attempts at realistic proposals,
and brief explanations why I think they should be considered:


1. Port the existing EPOC emulator (ER5) to WinCE for their Netbook Pro. The
emulator is written in C++ for Windows, so porting to WinCE could probably be
done by a one or two man team(?). Binary compatibility with the old ARM
processor would mean that PsionT's current Netbook customers can run their
current software on the new Netbook Pro; this is good because the Netbook cannot
be manufactured for much longer, since it's ARM processor is no longer produced!
BTW, such customers can gradually migrate from EPOC to WinCE apps with this
route, which is a very good reason for them to buy a Netbook Pro.

2. Port the current EPOC OS (ER5) to the Netbook Pro. This is a more difficult
project, as any OS developer will tell you. The reason it may not be
prohibitively costly is that the new Netbook Pro hardware appears very similar
to the old Netbook, so that simply modifying the code of a few drivers may be
enough to get ER5 partially working - after which modifying it to support the
larger screen, etc, will be quite easy. The justification for doing this is
the same as proposal 1, i.e. their existing Netbook customer base can buy
Netbook Pros and get fully compatibility.

3. Port of the Symbian OS (ER7) to the Netbook Pro. This is a significant
undertaking, because whatever the similarities to ER5, PsionT must start with a
totally new codebase (ER7), and attempt to get the OS to work on the Netbook Pro
hardware. The advantage of ER7 is that it natively supports BlueTooth & other
networking protocols, and that there are many companies producing software for
it. The disadvantage of ER7 is that old ER5 programs will not work.

Proposal 3 is a large amount of effort, and to be worth PsionT's while there
must be an unusually large gain to be made. I maintain that the only possible
reason is that they may wish to take a risk so that they can break into new
markets. Given that WinCE already runs on the Netbook Pro, the only possible
reason I can see for porting ER7 is that it is 100 percent compatible with the
latest Symbian smartphones. Surely there is a market for a small robust laptop
that can link via BlueTooth with a Smartphone, which has a similar interface to
those phones, and which seamlessly shares data, for situations when a smartphone
is not up to the job. I'm very open to suggestions on this justification...

Regards,
Chris Handley

[comical_ali]

Wow - this thread has realy go people going ;-)

As per earlier contributors I concur that we have to be somewhat realistic. ( despite my own anti-Gates stance - see earlier post )

P/T are only going to do something if makes quantities of cold hard cash.

Now if a lot of people are prepared to buy the new NBPro because it has the epoc/symbian option ( in whatever form ) then they will consider it.

Otherwise they will make a great show of listening, but eventauly will not turn up the goods.

So surely the petition or whatever should be basic and be signed / approved by as many potential customers as posiible.

U've been a great audience and i'm available for weddings and funerals at no extra charge:D

[hammera]

First of all I admit to knowing practically nothing about programming, especially at OS level, so this idea may be a total waste of the thirty seconds it takes to read.

There is obviously a lot of work involved in porting Symbian 7.0s to the netBook Pro but could they get a head start from Nokia. Their next communicator will almost certainly run ER7 and, to me at least, is in a similar(ish) category to the netBook, i.e keyboard, landscape orientation, touch screen (apparently) and possibly an Xscale processor(?). I'm not suggesting that it would be simple but wonder if this could take out some of the prohibitive costs (plus I quite like the irony of the idea).

Just an idea so don' be too harsh if it's a load of twoddle.

Adam

[golmert]

If any of you would have paid more attention and stop this unexplained pride which is based on the anti- Microsoft attitude, and read more seriously the thread I posted way far back in September 2002-
[/url] <http://www.pdastreet.com/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=1708&highlight=windows>
then you probably would have had the chance to influence on such a step.

It is naive to think anything can be changed now- are you going to pay Teklogik the money for the development?...

As I have already mentioned before- it does help sometimes to be more open minded and not just a narrow thinking of "Psion and nothing but Psion".

technology is advancing quick and companies get their income from proper business and not from a machine which can be put in our museums of technology.

As funny as it sounds to you- once you will go to Windows only then will you realize what you missed. The OS has been improved ,the hardware supporting it is far more advanced then the Netbook. So again- if you prefer to close your eyes- go ahead, stay behind. The technology is far far ahead of what you seem to adore blindly.

[Abdullah]

Originally posted by cshandley
3. Port of the Symbian OS (ER7) to the Netbook Pro. This is a significant undertaking, because whatever the similarities to ER5, PsionT must start with a totally new codebase (ER7), and attempt to get the OS to work on the Netbook Pro hardware. The advantage of ER7 is that it natively supports BlueTooth & other
networking protocols, and that there are many companies producing software for it. The disadvantage of ER7 is that old ER5 programs will not work.

Proposal no 3 is the one that seems the most sensible, and the one that is the easiest! Symbian 7 can be modified easily to 'run' on XScale (it may already be able to 'run' on XScale, XScale is like StrongARM2) and the EIKON UI has already been 'ported' to v7 (http://www.symbian.com/developer/techlib/v70docs/SDL_v7.0/doc_source/QuickStart/Emulators.html).

So the effort is not so great at all, comparitively. Just a bit of slight modification to suit the machine, and then a bit of 'tidying up' of the UI is needed, perhaps a few weeks or months work.

In my opinion, we should only propose no3, not number 1 or 2.

[noises]

...what about the Netbook Pro with Symbian OS7, bluetooth for connecting to a headset and a "dumb handset" which is just a phone keypad and a digital camera, also connecting via bluetooth. The nbpro can use one of those PCMCIA cards with a phone SIM for GPRS connectivity.

You then have all the bits you need for a full office. You can buy the nbpro first and upgrade the system to be phone enabled later if you wish.

This would be plenty of reason to put Symbian OS7 onto the nbpro - I'd buy one tomorrow!

I can just imagine showing off my credit card sized "phone" which connects to my "little computer" in my briefcase!



sounds like this (http://foma.nttdocomo.co.jp/english/term/sh2101v_01.html) sharp 2 piece thing which has been on sale in japan for ages. maybe ktkawabe san can tell us more about how this machine is faring...

thinking a year or two ahead, i definitely foresee later versions of sharp clamshell machines (possibly even running symbian?) capturing the hearts and wallets of many of us epoc users.

anyway, b@st*rds, i was really holding out for the netbook pro/ii thingy... can anybody google some symbian email addresses to which we can all politely petition??

[noises]

response to epoc user's demands & petitions for a consumer version of the nb??

[diem]

I like you succinct 3 choices Chris. Right, if everyone likes his words, then the next plan of action is to set up an online petition (easy - there's free websites that support such things). I'll wait for a few more days of responses on this thread, then I'll get on the case.

[Mobilix]

We at PsionWelt (http://www.psionwelt.net) and Mobile2Day (http://www.m2d.de) and our communities will support this petition with every possible action!

My opinion:
The TechView UI of the Symbian OS7 SDK should be easily portable to nBpro, and a 921x Communicator with OS7 will possibly help in this development!

Best regards
Thomas

[ktkawabe]

Chris, thanks for your proposal of being realistic.The
emulator is written in C++ for Windows, so porting to WinCE could probably be
done by a one or two man team(?). Binary compatibility with the old ARM
processor would mean that PsionT's current Netbook customers can run their
current software on the new Netbook Pro;As I already wrote before, that's unrealistic. We should never demand binary compatibility, if our focus is to become realistic. Here's the reason why I think so:

Short version:
You're asking for an emulation of native EPOC (which WINS isn't), not the reimplementation of EPOC on a different platform (which WINS is). Complete rewrite of everything from zero.

Long version:
Anything that would run on WINS MUST be linked against WINS library. WINS library is Microsoft in that the library is created by 100% Microsoft tools and linked against Microsoft library. WINS applications are purpose-built for Microsoft in this sense.

On the other hand, anything that would run on the real EPOC device (like netBook) MUST be linked against EPOC native library for ARM. EPOC native library for ARM is GNU in that it is created by 100% GNU tools. EPOC native applications are purpose-built to for GNU in this sense.

So far, so good. Sadly, libraries created by Microsoft tools and the ones created by GNU tools are not compatible. They cannot understand each other. It doesn't matter if the processors are actually identical or not.

Still, in principle, it should be possible to watch over the execution of native EPOC app in WinCE, analyze the function calls originally meant for GNU library, and do the "right thing" in Windows environment. Or a virtual machine (a la VMWare). Or this or that. We can continue on and on. But, all in all, they're emulation. And nothing of this sort exists in Symbian as far as I know.

How long did it take before Windows apps on Linux X86 became useable, despite the fact that Windows and Linux both use X86 processor? Very long (more than 5 years I'd say).

Now, as for porting the emulator on WinCE, I don't know if this is a job that can be done in a short timescale in the first place. I very much doubt that, but I have to confess I don't have any real experience/knowlegde concerning this. Since the vice president told it might be possible, probably it might be.

Cheers,
Keita

[comical_ali]

sorry to keep making suggestions but a thought just occured..

A further carrot to P/T may be that the initial outlay in developing epoc/symbian for the N/BPro could be offset by the chance to port it to a smaller version of the N/BPro - a Series 6 if you will :rolleyes:

To my thinking this would p*** all over any win device ( i've yet to use a WIN CE / POCKET PC with the useability of a 5/5mx ) - but perhaps the day of the standalone PDA is comming to an end..... unless it's a communicator .... spooky thought

Anyway, just show me where to sign.

[cangiante]

I am glad that Chris summarized the whole question into the three most important points.

I do not want to pour iced water on everybody's enthusiasm either but I have to point out the following:

the conversation between the Canadian gentleman and me started exactly from the point that Psion had chosen not to put Symbian 6.0 and 7.0 OS into the new machine. I am not a technician and therefore I cannot say anything about that (I just found very interesting all the comments posted above here).

What I told him - and seems to have caught up his attention - is that P/T do not actually know what will miss if they forget about Symbian 5.0 on the nB pro.

I gave him just a couple of examples concerning huge categories of potential professional customers needing such a reliable machine to count on for a 9 till 5 usage: SALESMEN (I am one and the forum we met at was indeed called mobileforce) and JOURNALISTS (which are people I do know well).

Last but by no means least, there is the whole widespread netBook community around the world which is a extremely valuable asset - maybe I'd better say a real TREASURE - which they probably did not take into account.

that is why I asked him to reconsider this matter and think about the dual boot sort of thing.

it is a long way to go. we'll surely need to keep our feet down to earth and focus on realistic targets.


PS: I had no doubts about the fact you would find this thread interesting, but expecting is one thing and seeing it alive is quite another ;-)

thanks to everybody for following this thread from other newsgroups such as the Epoc Digest and the German ones as well as to all the loyal Italian psioneers talking about this also at Psion Fans Italia!

[ktkawabe]

Sorry for writing long posts repeatedly.

Basically I also support the spirit of 3 points presented by Chris (though I'm against binary compatibility demand). Case about pros and cons were really nice, but I think we should shy away from assessing the technical difficulties unless we know something (I'll return to that later). Thank you Chris for your effort.

Is your intention to present this as "choose one of these please" for the supporters of this plea? I think it makes sense. Instead of asking supporters to join plea as a whole, allow them to express their own preferenses by vote. Here's 2 reasons.

As for PsionT, of course they don't want to support ER6 and 7 and Emulator and WinCE for next eternity on the same device. (That's insane, considering the fact that once the coorporates buy something they don't jump to the next newest and greatest thing for at least several years.) If anything would ever happen, they'll do only one thing. So it's better for them if they can see what kind of possibilities are there PLUS which possibility is supported by how many people.

As for the supporters, each has his/her own opinions like "ER5 goes nowhere" or "ER7 doesn't have any app" or whatever. Generally they are hoping that the nB Pro would support EPOC in SOME MANNER, but, for example my current preference is 3 > 2 > 1, and clearly I don't want to place the same weight on these three.
I want my opinion to be reflected, plus I want to make it clear that my opinion has a "fall-back-mode", meaning if my prefered thing is turned out to be imposssible I still support other possibilities. This can be implemented in online questionair (but where to look, diem?). A sophisticated form might be difficult to implement in a free service but in the worst case we could do something like:

What's your choice:
I prefer 1.
I prefer 2.
I prefer 3.

What do you do if your choice turns out to be impractical?
I refuse anything else
I prefer other choices over giving up everything.

Cheers,
Keita

[ktkawabe]

And the last point.

I think it's better to shy away from passing our assessment of the technical difficulties to PsionT. I'm not against the idea of telling supporters what is thought to be reasonable by some of us, but I'm worrying if the things like the followings would be passed to PsionT (even after some nice editing):The emulator is written in C++ for Windows, so porting to WinCE could probably be done by a one or two man team(?).The reason it may not be prohibitively costly is that the new Netbook Pro hardware appears very similar to the old Netbook, so that simply modifying the code of a few drivers may be enough to get ER5 partially working - after which modifying it to support the larger screen, etc, will be quite easyThis is a significant undertaking, because whatever the similarities to ER5, PsionT must start with a totally new codebase (ER7), and attempt to get the OS to work on the Netbook Pro hardwareThere's absolutely no technical reason to assume that ER5 is easier than ER7 (or WINS on WinCE is easier, which I expressed my doubt but admitted I'm not knowledgeable enough apart from the binary compatibility issue). Despite the Chris' nice reasonings, I can claim quite the opposite from the technical perspective, which I'll try later. In this respect, we're in a complete lack of reliable information. As such, there's no point in assuming that something is easier and thus more realistic than the other. That's not our task.

We have to drop what we know for sure is unrealistic, but I don't want to go further. PsionT is more knowledgeable than me and what I want to do is to tell them I support the idea of EPOC on nB Pro. I'd rather ask them "from my perspective this and this might be possible and there're such benefits for you. I prefer this.".

OK, let's try to counter-argue why it might be easier to port ER7 than ER5.

Disclaimer: My personal opinion is that we don't have any reasonable information to allows us to assess the technical difficulty in porting things. Nevertheless I intentionally try to argue in one direction as if I'm believing that arguement.

ALL of the low-level codes which directly touch the ICs should be replaced anyway. They cannot just use the code for old netBook. Each new IC means new code. XScale is not a drop-in replacement for SA1100, meaning they have redesigned the motherboard, with new peripheral/companion ICs.
Why the linux for Series5 wouldn't boot on 5mx despite the superficial similarity (exactly same formfactor, exactly same set of peripherals, the same ARM V4 core)?

Some of the higher-level drivers, like LAN driver for PCMCIA, might work, though.

Further, when XScale was released ER5 was very much at the end of its life. Therefore it is very likely that there's no version of ER5 that runs on XScale development board (Intel DBPXA250 or 255). This is backed up by the fact that there's no announcement, neither from Symbian nor from Intel, that ER5 has been ported to these boards. Since there's no low-level development platform readily available for ER5 for XScale, ER5 wouldn't boot easily on new nB.

On the other hand, ER7 was ported at least to Intel DBPXA250 as a matter of fact (try google using "symbian dbpxa250"). Further, PXA255 is the drop-in replacement of PXA250, so it is reasonable to assume that dbpxa255 also runs ER7.

Since PsionT should have used either DBPXA250 or 255 for the development of nB Pro for WinCE, everything that is needed to run ER7 on their development boards is READILY AVAILABLE from Symbian.

The real question is, of course, how much custom work has been done for the new board. If it is not too far from the reference implementation on the development board, most things can be used with minor changes. If very far/drastic, we don't have any chance. But that's still better than having to start from making ER5 boot on the development board.

Cheers,
Keita

[cshandley]

I basically agree with Keita, who I think understood my basic point when he
said:

"As such, there's no point in assuming that something is easier and thus more
realistic than the other. That's not our task."

"We have to drop what we know for sure is unrealistic, but I don't want to go
further."


It was never my intention that we should give technical explanations to PsionT;
those were provided for the readers here, in the hope of pushing the discussion
towards realistic pros & cons. Once something like consensus is reach as to
which proposals are not obviously bad, then we can draft a short letter to Psion
& include poll results with that.

As such, I should please do NOT take my word as final about what is easy or
difficult, but rather they were my best guesses based on having some technical
insight (whereas quite a few people here obviously do not have any, since they
are not programmers/etc).

Regards,
Chris Handley

[MikeW]

I understand that Microsoft did not recompile the operating system when Intel introduced the new PXA250 & PXA255 which is 1 of the reasons that it does not run that much quicker than the old ARM CPU. This should mean that there is less work for Psion T to do when porting ER5 to the new CPU.

I am concerned that we may put Psion T off even looking at the possibility if we are not realistic.

[markdeppe]

OK Yan. I'll support the petition. Please can we have a line in there asking for easy transfer of all our data from current netbook to the new one, ideally via IR without the need of a PC though I realise that would be asking a lot and may be unreasonable.

[lgp]

I think it is best to be able to boot a couple of systems on the hardware. OPL is familiar and does the basics. It also uses the power management seemingly well. Linux would possibly allow access to a larger base of generic apps. I am bored with Microsoft but it seems useless to fight it, since that's where the apps are.

I really like the current hardware and really do not want to be too cutting edge because it just costs too much to stay current. Staying behind the curve seems to be where value can be found.

Linux and OPL probably would be best. That is my uneducated opinion.

[ktkawabe]

Hello Chris,Once something like consensus is reach as to which proposals are not obviously bad, then we can draft a short letter to Psion & include poll results with that.Points fully understood. Thank you very much for clarification.:)

Cheers,
Keita

[hochi]

Hello everybody!

I would like to make additional thoughts to this thread. This posting should not be understand as a must-do for Psion, but mainly to explain some insides that not everybody is familiar with.

- I think it's clear, that nearly everybody reading/writing to this board would prefer Epoc/Symbian OS over WinCE. So our support to this petition is clear. And as Thomas (alias Mobilix) said this support isn't limited to PDAStreet, but in fact there is support form some other Psion-related groups as well.
But what we should try is getting a lot of other support as well. Maybe companies like Citrix Systems, IBM etc. would support the petition, too. What about companies that bought a big quantity of netBooks??

- I'm not a genius in programming (and I not yet try programming for ER7), but as far as I know ER5 and ER7 aren't that different as many seems to think. The main difference is Ascii vs. Unicode!! So in theory any C++ App should work on the new ER7 - just a recompile is necessary.
Let me explain: Symbian tried to implement Unicode already for the really first Psion Series 5 but they can't devote the time in this project because the J-Day got closer. Another reason is that ram chips wasn't that cheap in 1995 and Unicode needs in theory double the ram of Ascii (16bit vs. 8bit).
But the fathers and mothers of Epoc were clever. The whole OS and all standard applications were written in intend running them on Unicode some time. In fact Symbian just says compile this to Ascii-code or Unicode. The source is 100% identity. As some may know there are two ER5 Unicode devices: a special version of the Revo and a special version of the Series 5mxPro. All ER6 and ER7 devices are Unicode as well.
Ascii vs. Unicode is a main reason why our beloved Psions are incompatible with the latest Symbian phones, too.

- Er7 has many advantages over ER5. Akk are interesting if Psion Teklogix would really develop a netBook Pro with Epoc. All the necessary device drivers, like Bluetooth, USB and so on are ready. No additional work would be needed.
ER7 has a much better support for multimedia than ER5: Just think of the SE P800 playing MP3 and videos.

=> Keeping this in mind, I would say it's a lot easier to run ER7 on the netBook Pro than it is to write all the new drivers for ER5 again. But of course I may be wrong.


Cheers,
Sebastian

[MartinMaxwell]

>>>- I think it's clear, that nearly everybody reading/writing to this board would prefer Epoc/Symbian OS over WinCE. So our support to this petition is clear. And as Thomas (alias Mobilix) said this support isn't limited to PDAStreet, but in fact there is support form some other Psion-related groups as well.
But what we should try is getting a lot of other support as well. Maybe companies like Citrix Systems, IBM etc. would support the petition, too. What about companies that bought a big quantity of netBooks??<<<

Fully agree, and there are plenty of - non-North American - small and medium sized companies - like ourselves for instance - who earn their daily bread by developing enterprise applications on netBooks in EPOC.

>>>- I'm not a genius in programming (and I not yet try programming for ER7), but as far as I know ER5 and ER7 aren't that different as many seems to think. The main difference is Ascii vs. Unicode!! So in theory any C++ App should work on the new ER7 - just a recompile is necessary.<<<

There are of course some other changes apart from Unicode, such as changes related to choice of CPU, chipset etc, as well as the linking of UIN/TechView with the v7.0 codebase.

>>>As some may know there are two ER5 Unicode devices: a special version of the Revo and a special version of the Series 5mxPro. All ER6 and ER7 devices are Unicode as well.
Ascii vs. Unicode is a main reason why our beloved Psions are incompatible with the latest Symbian phones, too.<<<

That is news to me!!! Is there a Unicode version of Series 5mxPro available somewhere, I would like to buy one on the spot!!!!

But you are omitting what I thought was the most widely sold ER5 Unicode device - a.k.a. ER5u - which is the Ericsson R380 smartphone.

>>>Keep this in mind, I would say it's a lot easier to run ER7 on the netBook Pro than it is to write all the new drivers for ER5 again. But of course I may be wrong. <<<

No I think you are perfectly correct, and others here and elsewhere have said the same thing.

cheers
Martin

[hochi]

Hello Martin,

That is news to me!!! Is there a Unicode version of Series 5mxPro available somewhere, I would like to buy one on the spot!!!!
Please have a look at http://www.enfour.com/news/proj.html

I'm sorry, but I don't know if it is just a add-on or if there is a real new OS.img avaiable. But I think I get some press releses about that ages ago. I don't know if I find them again. But I do my best.

ciao,
Sebastian


Updated: Please have a look at http://ww6.investorrelations.co.uk/psion/press/ir25419.shtml ,too.

[ktkawabe]

Hello Sebastian and Martin,originally posted by MartinThat is news to me!!! Is there a Unicode version of Series 5mxPro available somewhere, I would like to buy one on the spot!!!!Unfortunately no, Martin, not in a sense you expect. They are all narrow-build (not unicode-build) devices. Therefore this is mostly irrelevant to this thread.

However, if you're interested, please read the following two documentations (HEAVY read, be warned):
http://www.enfour.co.jp/psion/development/download/sdk/index.html
http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/~ktkawabe/aleppo

And Sebastian, yes there's new Japanese os.img shipped for Japanese customers. But this is still not the unicode-build os. It's mostly implemented in Eikon level.

Pros: You can use Japanese/Chinese/Korean characters in most of the existing ER5 app. Even in the worst case they work as apps that only supports US-ASCII (no accented chars, just plain ASCII). You don't have to worry about the binary compatibility because it is ER5 and the base (E32) is exactly the same.

Cons: Exactly NO connectivity at all. You cannot sync to ANYTHING if you want to use Japanese or Chinese or Korean or accented European characters.

[MartinMaxwell]

>>>They are all narrow-build (not unicode-build) devices. Therefore this is mostly irrelevant to this thread. <<<

We are perfectly aware of UniFEP. In fact we had it included in a quote (though unsuccessful) a few years ago. As you say it is not a Unicode build.

I had of course hoped that Sebastian was referring to some previously (for me at least) unknown *true* Unicode build of ER5 running in a 5mx Pro.

[netBookBabe]

The number of people looking at this thread speaks volumes to me about the level of interest in the new netBook - 2805 views so far, as I write - I can't remember any other thread which generated so much traffic in such a short time.

Let's hope that PT are looking at it too!

Julie

[cshandley]

Keep this in mind, I would say it's a lot easier to run ER7 on the netBook Pro than it is to write all the new drivers for ER5 again. But of course I may be wrong.

I think you ARE wrong.

ER7 does *not* contain drivers for BlueTooth/etc; it contains the infrastructure to support such drivers.

I still think the Netbook Pro should be sufficiently similar to the Netbook that it will be much easier to modify ER5 to work, compared to re-writing all drivers from scratch for ER7. Please keep this (likely) excessive extra work in mind.


So if PsionT wished to support BlueTooth/etc on the Netbook Pro, then ER7 is the way to go, but it is harder work and might not be commercially viable.

Whereas if PsionT only wish to "support" a few existing business customers (I.E. relatively few new sales), then porting ER5 would be the cheaper option.

Porting the ER5 emulator to WinCE might be even cheaper, but that very much depends on how many (and what kind of) Windows functions it uses.

---
Chris Handley

[cshandley]

Oh, I also meant to say that I think it is misleading to say ER5 apps "only" need to be recompiled to ER7:

While this may be true, this means ALL existing C++ apps will not work without recompile; e.g. CityMaps, RoutePlanner, Money, Opera, NoMansLand, 5FX, MBMView, PDF+, Navigator, ...

And I think it is VERY naive to expect all (or even most) companies making these apps will recompile just for us few users. Partly because quite a few have already abandoned EPOC, and may not even have the programmers available anymore.

I have found that just getting hold of WINS (ER5 emulator) versions of these apps very difficult, and this is quite surprising since all these programs will have had WINS versions made during program development/testing.


So one VERY important issue is binary compatability. Unless PsionT decide to try go after consumers again, it simply isn't in most companies interest to recompile, and therefore we will be loosing many of the apps which make EPOC so nice. Thus I maintain binary compatibility is a *must*, or it will be hardly any better than WinCE.

[stolkjo]

Failure to make money has nothing to do with the OS.

I moved to the US 4 years ago from The Netherlands, having used
Psion's since 1993. In the US the marketing for Psion products was absolutely pour. I have had people around me for the last 4 years looking at my 5MX (now my MnetBook), asking where I got this because never heard of it. I have personally helped over 40 people buy a Psion (should have bought stock), and almost supporting every single one of them at some point in time with some problem. For free, stupid, I know but to me it is a battle against Micro&%$#@ or Pa*^.

They could have made good money in the US.

John

[hochi]

Hello Chris,

thanks for your message and the new inputs!

As I said I haven't programmed any application for ER7 yet. Wherefor I only have the information I read by different people at Symbians' newsboard and coudn't gather my own experience. However I'm familar - not a genius - with ER5.
BTW: What is your programming backround?

It's the first time I read that Bluetooth isn't fully working in ER7. In fact (nearly) all Symbian phones do support Bluetooth now. From that there shouldn't be any need to invent the wheel another time.

That said, I find it very interesting that the latest netPad is offered with Bluetooth. Does this work only with WinCE or is there a Epoc driver in development??

Porting the ER5 emulator to WinCE might be even cheaper, but that very much depends on how many (and what kind of) Windows functions it uses.
Yes your are rigth, that porting the emulator from Win to CE depends on the used windows functions but I very much doubt that there was ever really thought about doing it. It isn't even so easy porting relativ small apps from win9x/NT to WinCE and the Emulator isn't such a small app at all.

I think it is VERY naive to expect all (or even most) companies making these apps will recompile just for us few users. Partly because quite a few have already abandoned EPOC, and may not even have the programmers available anymore.
Could you please give some exampels?
- I don't see that tomtom has abandoned Epoc.
- Opera freezed it's development for ER5 but not for Epoc in general. There are new versions out for nokia phones and the SE P800!
- Again Sander van der Wal is an active Symbian OS programmer. PDF reader and writer are avaiable for Nokias' Communicator as well.
- Ok, with MBMView and Navigator you may be right. The programmer behind MBMView - Lieuwe de Vries - saidly died not long ago. And Purple Software declared bankrupt. But the founders of Purple Software just started a new company and have already written a lot of new games for the symbian platform (note: not for ER5).
- I don't know anything about NoMansLand and 5FX because I never used them.

I have found that just getting hold of WINS (ER5 emulator) versions of these apps very difficult, and this is quite surprising since all these programs will have had WINS versions made during program development/testing.
I don't think this is realy surprising. A Wins version were never be sold and why should a developer over it's software for the emulator for free?
Please keep in mind that some software won't even fully work on the emulator. Either because it needs the Psion hardware - like IrDA, PCMCIA slot - or that some parts of the application was written in assembler.
I don't see really any relation between not avaiable Wins versions and possible no support for a ER7 netBook.

Thanks for listening,
Sebastian

[ktkawabe]

Hi Chris,
instead of placing the main focus on telling your/my guess, let's first focus on the known facts. You probably know all of the points I'll write here, but anyway it should be made clear for others:

1. BlueTooth (and USB and such) work using several layers of protocols. In general, higher level layers can be implemented by means of generic code that doesn't directly touch the hardware, while the lower-level layers should be implemented as the hardware-specific code. To avoid confusion, let's use the word "driver" for only the latter.

2. Symbian supports BlueTooth. This means that hardware-independent layers are readily available. The same can be said for USB. And this and that new features.

3. The Symbian Board Support Package for Intel DBPXA250/DBPXA255 evaluation board is available from Intel.
http://www.palmos.com/dev/programs/palmosready/Intel_DBPXA250_DS.pdf
The product brochure clearly says that it supports BlueTooth via dedicated serial, meaning the board has some hardware for Bluetooth UART interface. So it is very reasonable to think that at least the driver for this specific hardware for Bluetooth UART interface working for XScale is readily available.
By the way this board also supports WinCE.NET.

4. There's definitely no support, even for higher-level hardware-independent layers (not to mention "drivers"), for BlueTooth and such in ER5. If they're to support them, thay have to do that from scratch, or they have to backport things from ER7 to ER5.

5: "Companion chip" is a special-purpose IC to offer many peripheral capabilities for CPU. Though CPU makers offer their own companion chips (which can be called "standard" ones in some sense), some prefers to use other companion chip from different manufacturer. Since standard companion chip is used in standard development board, with standard chip many codes are readily available.

6. Though the current nB uses Intel SA1100 CPU, it doesn't use the Intel companion chip SA1111, but instead uses some custom IC:
http://www.portal-pda.com/guides/netbook/insidenetbook.html
Note that the current nB doesn't support USB. (That doesn't necessarily mean that the custom companion chip in nB doesn't have USB host controller, though.)

7: Intel SA1111 companion chip offers USB host controller. (That doesn't necessarily mean that the final product with SA1111 always has USB capability, though.)
ftp://download.intel.com/design/strong/datashts/27824301.pdf

8: The nB Pro, according to cangiante, appears to have some port which looked like USB.

OK, that's about it as far as the driver issue is concerned. What a poor information, though. We definitely need more.I still think the Netbook Pro should be sufficiently similar to the Netbook that it will be much easier to modify ER5 to work, compared to re-writing all drivers from scratch for ER7.Without being backed by some facts, this sounds weak. "re-writing all drivers from scratch" is an exaggeration because there's some working reference hardware for XScale (DBPXA250/255) running ER7, even though there's no XScale Symbian phones available in market as far as I can see. I have tried to clarify this by 1-4.

Questions that should be asked by my (pro-ER7 like me, or ER7-easier like Sebastian) side are "how different nB Pro is from this reference hardware" and "how many things are supported in ER7 as of now that are not on this reference hardware". I don't know.

Now, it might actually be relatively easy to port ER5 to nB Pro if (and only if) they don't support all these Bluetooth and USB and such that already exist in nB Pro. I guess this is what you're suggesting. I cannot judge if your claim is true or not because I don't have any good information (like the datasheet and/or photos of the new motherboard). It might also well be that they have to write drivers for ER5 from scratch if the new nB Pro uses yet another custom companion chip. If it uses SA1111, ER5 is probably as easy as ER7. If it uses the same custom companion chip as nB, ER5 might be easier.

Questions that should be asked by your (pro-ER5, or ER5-easier) side is "how different nB Pro is from the old nB", "how many things are supported in ER5 as of now that are not on the old nB" and "Is it OK to be unable to use the peripherals that are there". As for the first question, I have tried to provide some information about the companion chip (facts 5-8).

Concerning the binary compatibility, I think I gave you a very clear explanation of why this is technically unreasonable for WINS. Therefore I assume that you're saying that ER5 should be the way to go. Is my understanding correct?

Cheers,
Keita

[MartinMaxwell]

Keita, thanks for this excellent and factual build up.

I think without further knowledge about the netBook Pro design and the ER7's preparedness for the XScale architecture, we have probably exhausted this aspect of the discussion.

We could add the human resource aspect and the marketing aspect.

- How many developers would like to dabble with ER5 today? Very few.

- What would be more convincing in the market place, an NetBook Pro ER5 with commonality to a line of PDAs that are not manufactured anymore or a netBook Pro ER7 with commonality to 60%-80% of manufactured smartphones - a market which already is several times larger than the total sales of *all* PDAs taken together (PalmOS+WinCE+Linux+Symbian) and still growing rapidly? I think a petition to Psion T advocating an ER7 version of netBook Pro would look stronger in almost all aspects compared to the alternatives.

I recently brought up the Psion T/D petition in the developer section of www.allaboutsymbian.com. forum, which is the most active Symbian OS smartphone forum. Developers from all over the world replied and said that they - assumed it runs ER7 - would love to be able to use the netBook as development platform for the phones. This *is* a significant market.

The companion concept further has been described in many previous postings. This *is* also a significant market niche given the huge volume and growth of Symbian OS smartphone market.

As a case in point, recently there was a statement from the CEO of Opera that at least *they* looked at a scenario where Symbian OS would *outsell* Windows in a few years time in terms of unit numbers. When did Microsoft (Windows or MS DOS) become second to anyone the last time in unit sales? Probably we're talking late 80s. This statement does not come out of anti-Microsoft romantics, but is based on serious market projections. BTW, Opera has browser products on both platforms. What will sell more in the future, smartphones or PCs? What device has the highest potential of bridging the digital divide? What is most affordable and can get you instantly connected without hazzle? Smartphones, smartphones, smartphones are the answers, not "tablet PC"s, PDAs, set-top boxes or anything else. And who is the dominant OS provider?

But more advanced users will need a companion with larger screen and keyboard to go with the smartphone. Here, commonality in file formats, applications, UI, drivers etc is a significant advantage to the user.

cheers
Martin

[cshandley]

Martin,

I think you are right. While I still think my technical speculation is likely to be true, we probably won't get any further arguing over that. We must leave the decision to PsionT.

The best we can do is have ER5 as a (low cost?) "secondary proposal". Existing business customers with a large number of Netbooks might be interested in this option, since their existing software will work at no cost. Both native & emulated ER5 should be suggested.


As the "primary proposal", ER7 seems to be the way to go.

While all C++ apps will need recomplilation, if ER7 developers would be interested in using such a machine, then the whole ball-game changes. Instead of recompiling for a dead-end machine (no one is interested in that), they would have the option of compiling for the latest cool device.

So the problem now becomes "How do we convince PsionT the effort in porting ER7 is worth their while?". While only PsionT know what their capabilities & plans are, there are some good reasons:


1. Many current ER7 developers (and there are a *lot* of those) would be interested in using an ER7 Netbook Pro now.

2. It provides an upgrade path from the Netbook, for both large business customers & individual consumers. The path isn't painless (recompiled apps must be obtained), but this is a fairly small pain compared to switching to Win CE.

3. ER7 is most probably the OS of choice for all future Smart Phones, and that is a huge market. Even if only a tiny percentage of Smart Phone users would like a "seamless companion", that is still a lot of sales. If Smart Phones shipped with a little leaflet telling them about the Netbook Pro, that is all the advertising they need! There are lots of reasons why Smart Phone makers would be quite keen to include such a leaflet.


I hope others can add to my reasons.

Regards,
Chris Handley

[cshandley]

Sebastian,

Sorry for the confusion; when I refer to "Epoc" I mean ER5. I use "Symbian" to
refer to ER6/ER7. I thought this was the usual convention?

Thus EPOC (ER5) is definitely adandoned.



I don't think this is realy surprising. A Wins version were never be sold and
why should a developer over it's software for the emulator for free?

Sorry, why when did I ever say "use for free"? I have already bought the
relevant software, and in a *few* cases WINS versions are supplied (e.g.
PdfPrinter).

What I have been asking for is WINS version for something I have already bought.
I don't think this is an unreasonable request.


Regards,
Chris Handley

[stolkjo]

Ok,

Just some experience here I had with getting a 5MX repaired. Pour, pour process by the “T” guys in the US. I was so desperate I bought another 5MX. Ended up having to call from the US to the UK to get an answer on where the heck my machine was being repaired in the US!!!!! What I ended up doing was going to the UK Psion site and copied all the names of the board of directors and transposed those names according to an email address I had from a Psion employee in the UK. Within two hours I had somebody on the phone from Psion US (in MA). No charges for the repair and my machine back two days after the email. On top if I would leave the repaired Unit with them and pay the difference between a 5MX and a netBook they would send me a netBook.

I don’t say this is the way to go with this OS issue for the netBook Pro, but get the top involved and things start to roll.

Now from a completely different angle to get leverage! Sit back and think about this option:
How many serious users are out there that would “blindly” buy the new Pro with USB and all the other goodies running ER?. What would be wrong to have this community start a “hobby investment group”. All members pay a one time fee and a small monthly or yearly fee. All $,€,₧,₣,₤, etc. that comes in will be used to purchase Psion Stock. Ok dividend has nil for last year, but you have a nice indicator how large this group is, how interested they really are. I would rather go this route than to create a backdoor later or deal with dual boot or emulator stuff. Put a sign up sheet somewhere for a defined period of time and before we do that establish the minimum amount of people we need to do this. I rather see Psion / Symbian carry this task with their experience thanfumble it afterwards. I get the feel that there is a tight core of peple that hoover around this forum but what do we really have out there for die-hards?

Best regards,

John

[MartinG]

Might be worth a roll John. Let me know if your scheme gains some critical mass and I'll punt a few ££'s into it! :eek:

BTW, I don't know if you're aware but all the PT development work is done in Mississauga, Ontario (i.e. near Toronto). There's nothing left in the UK anymore as it's all gone to the acquired Teklogix team. Closer to you than us in the UK! ;)

Cheers,
Martin

[stolkjo]

Been there many times have friends in Toronto. They can figure contact info out. I can drive there in 6 hours! I am willing to make an appointment and represent the group and just go there.

John

[nmbaker]

Very interesting comments. If we do get forced down the MS OS route and presumably have to have the blue screen appearing on a regular basis, we might even decide to look at a new offering on http://www.oqo.com which may well allow us any OS in the future. At least we could run an emulator for EPOC and all be happy little bunnies!

[martyscholes]

I just heard from an informed source (aka an employee in the know) that Teklogix is planning a dual boot option, but has not announced it yet.

Symbian is acknowledged as the superior OS, but in the US, they are having pushback from their customer base.

[cshandley]

Originally posted by martyscholes
I just heard from an informed source (aka an employee in the know) that Teklogix is planning a dual boot option, but has not announced it yet.

This should NOT deter us from making a petition, since like all vapourware you shouldn't believe it till you see it.

I am hoping other people will still contribute suggestions! :-)

Maybe someone needs to take charge of the petition, so we don't have everybody waiting for everybody else to do something? Also would avoid duplication of effort.

Regards,
Chris Handley

[hochi]

This should NOT deter us from making a petition, since like all vapourware you shouldn't believe it till you see it.
Yes Chris, you're 100% right!! You have my full support.

that Teklogix is planning a dual boot option, but has not announced it yet.
This sound a little bit more hopeful. Let's keep your fingers crossed that this story come to a good end!

Bye,
Sebastian

[BradC]

Im not very knowledgeable on the tech side of this topic, but I have some general ideas that I want to share.

1)DUAL BOOT NETBOOK WILL NOT SELL
Were talking embedded software here that cant share the same hardware. A dual boot PDA is basically 2 PDAs fitted into one case.

2)EPOC OS NETBOOK RUNNING WIN CE EMULATER WILL NOT SELL
Theres too many issues trying to port/sychonize one OS to another that this will only work for us hardcore uses

3)PDA NOTEBOOKS HAVE NOT CAUGHT ON WITH GENERAL PUBLIC
I only know of 4 PDA with laptop layout: Netbook, NEC 880 and 2 other obscure models. If the Netbook is going to stay alive, they might as well put out a win CE model as a stopgap until the netphone idea catches on (which leads to my next point).

4)WEB PHONES HAVE NOT CAUGHT ON WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC
The technology is ready, but mobile phone companys just arent into pushing the idea of a cell phone/PDA providing wireless internet connectivity. Things like the intel centrino are finally forceing the way on this, but it hasnt happened yet. When it does happen, all of a sudden people are going to say, hey, why should I have to browse the web with this tiny PDA phone, when is someone going to make a laptop PDA/cell phone so I can type on a keyboard and have a full size screen.

[Jack B Nimble]

Point by point...

Originally posted by BradC
Im not very knowledgeable on the tech side of this topic, but I have some general ideas that I want to share.

1)DUAL BOOT NETBOOK WILL NOT SELL
Were talking embedded software here that cant share the same hardware. A dual boot PDA is basically 2 PDAs fitted into one case.

Not sure what your basis is for this proclamation, but I don't see why it wouldn't. I don't expect anyone will reboot from one OS to the other because, as you say, they would probably not share the hardware very well, but people will be able to choose which OS they want to use on a semi-permanent basis, depending on what other software they have or want to use. Companies will choose based on what they want to support or other software they already have. For myself, I hope you can choose which OS you want included in the box when you order the machine - no need to give M$ money for an OS I won't be using. :)


2)EPOC OS NETBOOK RUNNING WIN CE EMULATER WILL NOT SELL
Theres too many issues trying to port/sychonize one OS to another that this will only work for us hardcore uses

I agree, but I didn't really think it was a probability. WinCE .NET seems to be what all the documentation says so far, so that is the only thing we can probably count on. Hope for Symbian or something else, but until we see something more, it's all just rumors. Of course, the machine itself is still vaporware, for now.


3)PDA NOTEBOOKS HAVE NOT CAUGHT ON WITH GENERAL PUBLIC
I only know of 4 PDA with laptop layout: Netbook, NEC 880 and 2 other obscure models. If the Netbook is going to stay alive, they might as well put out a win CE model as a stopgap until the netphone idea catches on (which leads to my next point).

Not sure where you live, but I suspect you're from the USA, as am I. Why do I say that? Because it's more true of the US than other parts of the world. Sharp has had some success with their Mobilon (there is a US version sold by another company called the Intermec 6651). While M$'s HPCs keep dying (like the 880 you mention, and HP Jornada 7xx line), they don't seem to go away entirley. NEC just announced a new model (the MobilePro 900). Sharp just introduced one of their Linux-based Zaurus line in a landscape clamshell - the C700. In theory it's only sold in Japan, but it's popular enough that a company called Dynamism is importing them to the US. Dynamism is also importing the Samsung Nexio (using CE .NET 4.something) which can convert to a clamshell with a detachable keyboard. Even Palm OS is about to ship on a landscape clamshell. Sony's Clie line has included a portrait clamshell for a while now, and one of Sony's VPs just showed off the next gen model at a press conference, which is landshape clamshell. Palm Infocenter has that last story - http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5415


4)WEB PHONES HAVE NOT CAUGHT ON WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC
The technology is ready, but mobile phone companys just arent into pushing the idea of a cell phone/PDA providing wireless internet connectivity. Things like the intel centrino are finally forceing the way on this, but it hasnt happened yet. When it does happen, all of a sudden people are going to say, hey, why should I have to browse the web with this tiny PDA phone, when is someone going to make a laptop PDA/cell phone so I can type on a keyboard and have a full size screen.

Once again, very different story around the world. European and Japanese consumer embraced cell phone surfing some time ago. You do have a point however, in that Japan has far more landscape clamshells on the market, like Sygmarion III (also CE .NET based http://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/info/products/sigmarion3/index.html) and the import models I mentioned above. Maybe as mobile browsing becomes more popular, such models will sell better. Maybe, if/when that time comes, Psion and/or Symbian will have a model on the market to meet that demand.

Jack

[BradC]

Jack- Wireless internet phones are very big in Japan with their imode system, europe does use cellphones and PDAs more for wireless data connectivity than the US, but the PDA is still a bussiness tool there, not a entertainment system like in Japan. The reason it works so well in Japan is because they standardized to one system. The drawback is one company (Dokomo with 40 million subscibers) owns that system so all the PDAphones are propietary to that system. The other reason it works well is because they use cHTML (compact HTML) which is a miniturized subset of regular HTML. This format has very low bandwidth (a web page averages 150k) so they are able to use regular cellphone network instead of trying to push the bleeding edge of these new high bandwidth wireless formats. imode has been introduced in Europe but its outragously expensive and the public still isnt fully aware of what it is. In the US were stuck with text only webclipping which is often propietary to one website providing what all you can see on the web. BTW, I am an american living in Mexico.

[Jack B Nimble]

All your comments about NTT's DoCoMo and cHTML are correct, but that doesn't really explain away the acceptance levels seen in Europe.

I can't say much about the usage patterns in Europe - must of the people I have talked to about it seem to use it for both business and entertainment, but I am certain my associates are the geeks of Europe, and not necessarily typical. :)

In any case, I expect we are straying a bit far off topic here. My point was simply that the prospects for a good laptop-style PDA may not be so bad as you may think. Dynamism is selling these HPCs (and several Japanese sub-notebooks) to someone. The websites for the HP Jornada 7xx series are still very active, and the message boards have several comments from people who were ready to order the new NEC model the day it became available.

Is it mass-market? Not yet. Given Psion's past, and specifically their poor attempts at marketing in the US, I'd be happy if they just sold more netBook Pros than Psion NetPads (which also come in both WinCE and Symbian versions).

Jack

[stolkjo]

One thing that might make a difference in acceptance
is the simple factor of speed. As far as I know the GSM network
runs 43.2 b while the US CDMA network runs (under perfect
connection not to far from large cities) maximum at
14.4 b. Most often if you can get connected it will not
exceed "speeds" of 9.6!!! That has a dramatic inpact
on usability. I'm Dutch living in the US.

This started out as a discussion about the neBook Pro.
Let's get back to that.
Who is willing and able to put some time / $ into this.
I agree with the point made earlier. What are we doing
about it?

John

[markdeppe]

<<<Been there many times have friends in Toronto. They can figure contact info out. I can drive there in 6 hours! I am willing to make an appointment and represent the group and just go there.>>>

Thanks for that generous and kind offer. I offer my support in heart and mind to you and others, I am afraid I can offer nothing by way of tech help, though Like Martin am prepared to punt a little money to that end (if I had a lot it would be a lot :-) and if I can help in some other practicle way am happy to.

[Craggy]

Another perspective:

Hate to rain on anybody here's parade, but PT will probably have been hamstrung by M$ contractually to not allow the running of Symbian OS on the new netBook. It is the current situation with netpad (netpads sold with CE are not to be converted to EPOC), so it's my guess that M$ is keeping their greedy (but oh-so non-monopolising ;)) paws hold of PT, like a jemmy shoved into a crack in the Psion/Symbian partnership.

Possibility of a dual boot system: Very Unlikely IMO

The second problem is EPOC developers. PT laid off nearly all of its UK (i.e. old Psion Enterprise) staff earlier this year. Psion computers also laid off its EPOC developers last year.
The chance of Teklogix getting an experienced team together for such a task is now small.
The chance of getting the ones laid off back (despite the great loyalty Psion commanded) is also small... Many were worried that the Canadians weren't too committed to the Oxford team, and despite reassurances to the contrary, their fears were justified.

In case anyone thinks that this is sour grapes on my part, I actually left the company in September, three months before they announced the layoffs, but a good many friends and former colleagues were left high and dry... they're not likely to go running back!

[diem]

Okay folks,

I'm collating what's been said on this thread and will post a proposed wording for the petition later on.

Thanks for your input Craggy BTW, its highly valued and you may well be right, however we wouldn't be doing out job as the Psion community if we didn't raise our objections to the Microsoft hegemony ;)

[Craggy]

I quite agree, and wish you all the best. I just thougt it would be worth letting you know what you're facing.

The thing to remember is that what's left of Psion these days is essentially the smaller company that they bought out 3 years ago. The people at Teklogix are Windows CE oriented and it will take a lot to sway them in any other direction.

Personally I'd love to see a VGA (SVGA) instant on device running Symbian OS 7. I had a play with a netBook running it while at PsTek, it was extremely limited, but looked stunning.

The P800, while a great device is severely lacking in the keyboard department and the screen is just not big enough for doing things like IRC comfortably.

Once again, I hope you can really make a difference.

[hochi]

Hi Craggy,
The second problem is EPOC developers. PT laid off nearly all of its UK (i.e. old Psion Enterprise) staff earlier this year. Psion computers also laid off its EPOC developers last year.
thanks for your input. This is something I hadn't thought of before. And yes, this IS a big problem. I see your points.
Well but may Symbian possibly stand in and do the converting work in ER7??
Personally I'd love to see a VGA (SVGA) instant on device running Symbian OS 7. I had a play with a netBook running it while at PsTek, it was extremely limited, but looked stunning.
Was this (just) a netBook or even the new one? If it was the netBook One, may be the should extend our petition and ask for a netBook One ER7 OS.img, too??

bye,
Sebastian

[Craggy]

Originally posted by hochi

thanks for your input. This is something I hadn't thought of before. And yes, this IS a big problem. I see your points.
Well but may Symbian possibly stand in and do the converting work in ER7??


Well, to be honest Symbian already have. It's the job of the device manufacturer to get the rest of the work done. This is what used to happen at Psion, and what happens now with the likes of Nokia and Sony Ericsson. So basically half the work is done... As is the same with any OS... Someone would have to write device drivers and interfaces for the actual hardware though.


Was this (just) a netBook or even the new one? If it was the netBook One, may be the should extend our petition and ask for a netBook One ER7 OS.img, too??


To be honest I couldn't say what hardware it was running on. It looked like a normal netbook, but that's not to say that it wasn't some hybrid.

[Mobilix]

Hi Craig!


My sources told me that for running Symbian OS 7 on SVGA or even VGA you would need an XScale CPU, StrongARM would be to slow...

BTW: The cancelled Bluetooth revo (codename Conan ;-) was running a variant of Symbian OS 6 with EIKON... And it was programmed by an extern software house.

Best regards
Thomas
Psionwelt.net

[Craggy]

As I said, I don't know what hardware it was running on. It would certainly have been VGA though. It was a standard netbook screen.

[BradC]

Craggy- Since you worked at Epoc, can you tell what all would be involved for Teklogix do a Symbian 7 version of the Netboook Pro. Would this be a major software undertaking or something they could do as a side project?

[Craggy]

I totally agree. There has been a reluctance towards EPOC from Teklogix from the start. We all felt it from about 6 months after the merge.
I think it would take one or more large contract orders to get them to do this.

It is not a small undertaking, as the hardware is significantly different to netBook 1. I am a tester, so I'm not too sure what the total amount of development effort would be.

As someone else mentioned (possibly in the other thread) Psion Teklogix does not sell directly to consumers. They are an enterprise business fulfilling contracts to order and have traditionally not been interested in the small consumer.

One idea may be to try to persuade the parent company, Psion PLC based in the UK, that there is a demand for a Symbian OS based netBook 2. It seems logical to me that as the owners of Psion Teklogix, they could invest in an EPOC version and re-use the R&D from Teklogix. Unfortunately this does not seem particularly likely either.

[microbins]

I can not add much to all that has been said.
Just count me in for a Net book 2 if it runs EPOC or Symbian, and count me out if it runs MS OS.
I'll put up with MS OS on my desk where I can leave it running and the stuff is backed up. In my pocket is a Palm T|T becuse it is portable, and synchroises with my desktop. I stopped using Psion devices because they stopped developing portable stuff that I could afford.
If Psion or Tek were to make affordable EPOC / Symbian devices which MUST EASILY synchronise with PCs running MS software then they would have me and many other buyers (IMHO:-).
Some of us want to carry data around with us and be able to synch it to our home & office PCs, some of just want a portable computer.
Just about all of us would say that EPOC & SYMBIAN OS beats MS and Palm OS anyday - or night!

(now where do I sign.....

[Beakynet]

For me the Netbook is a laptop replacement and can do all that I need - the Netbook Pro would extend the life of my hardware by a few more years and consign my Series 7 to a backup machine.

[psionino]

Hi all

you can count me in for the petition, and le us hope it is not to late for P.T. to add dual boot to the new netBook pro.

i would love to change my present netBook for a new one only if
has the same software.

Good luck

Psionino

[ghostwind]

I think Craig is right.
It is very unlikely you will get an ER 5,6,7 netbook pro.
I would love to see one. So count me in on the wish list.

We just need a big wand now ;-))

Wave the wand and clone 20 developers and a couple of million budget.

[daniel_harker]

Bearing in mind Psion Teklogix will porbably aim this at the Corporate market, so they need it's networking ability to suit that - I don't use a netBook, but I'm definately concerned about using Wi-Fi LAN to connect to my PC for my ADSL net whilst my sister is on the net.

Win CE would probably have instant support for the LAN portocols in windows, negoting that problem

Furthermore, the PsiWin Software has NEVER been fool proof. Win CE might provide a better solution to PsiWin

One thing that could (at a guess) be suggested is a S7 Pro, as it aimed at the consumer market, look at page 114 of Palmtop mag issue 33, the netBook was Psion Enterprise and launched at £995, where as the S7 was bog standard Psion launched at £699

[cangiante]

Hello everybody!
I am dropping a few lines just to confirm that - according to some acquaintances of mine who also visited the mobile force forum in Milan - the two plugs of the new netBook PRO I saw with my own eyes were respectively a plug for an internal modem and a USB one. So my first impressions were right.
Please keep on spreading the word of the petition!
cheers
gianluca

[Lewis]

Hi, Cangiante!

...I feel, in a way, you should have the first & last word on this thread, as it winds down naturally; but I have to thank you again for your original posting, almost a month ago now - I don't suppose you realised what you were starting!... however, without your careful observation & reporting of the netBook Pro preview machine, the Psion Place community might not have had the chance to air its voice.

What, if any, effect it will have remains to be seen, but if P-T do cast aside their finest asset, at least we'll have the dignity of 'going down with the (EPOC) ship, in full evening wear and with the band playing'!

Well done & kind regards,

Lewis

[WolfUK]

Originally posted by daniel_harker
Furthermore, the PsiWin Software has NEVER been fool proof. Win CE might provide a better solution to PsiWinI just wanted to comment on this to say that ActiveSync is, I believe, pretty flakey itself and has numerous problems. As far as I can tell the Palm software, PocketMirror, isactually the best PDA-PC synchronisation software.

One thing that could (at a guess) be suggested is a S7 Pro, as it aimed at the consumer market, look at page 114 of Palmtop mag issue 33, the netBook was Psion Enterprise and launched at £995, where as the S7 was bog standard Psion launched at £699 The 7 was born because consumers wanted a version of the netBook so maybe a 7 Pro would come out of the petition (doubtful since it was a Psion device as you say but you never know!)

[MartinMaxwell]

The 7 was born because consumers wanted a version of the netBook so maybe a 7 Pro would come out of the petition (doubtful since it was a Psion device as you say but you never know!) [/B]

And finally we would get some consistency, Psion 7 Pro with Symbian OS 7 Pro.

If you know about ARM CPU vs instruction set version numbering you know what I mean...

[cangiante]

I understand that this vision may hurt, but at the moment is still the only option foreseen for the nB pro:

www.pec-forum.com/convegni/MB_roma_novita.htm

To avoid such sad future, we have to keep on supporting the petition...

gianluca

[MartinMaxwell]

But it looks like the Fn button is still Fn and not Alt, so there is hope... :-).

[dukibean]

The black plastic at the side of the screen looks much wider. Silkscreen buttons would require a modification to the case moulding.

[MartinG]

Unless they were soft perhaps. It's an SVGA screen after all...

[dukibean]

A nice idea. Totally configurable silkcreen.

[cangiante]

those curious to know more about the new netBook pro can follow these two links:

http://www.jidelec.fr/Jidelec/Terminaux_portables/tpi.htm

and above all this one

http://www.jidelec.fr/Jidelec/Terminaux_portables/tpi.htm#netbook

here is a brief and I underline approximate translation from french:

-thought and developed for entreprise mobile workforce
-Windows CE.net
-up to 8/10 hours
-instant on
-excellent grip
-large colour touch screen 800x600 tft
-resists to repeated drops on a wooden floor from a height of 1,2 meter
-Ports : Rs232, IRDA, USB
- internal 56 K Modem
-Supporting Pcmcia +compact flash + SD
- Azerty or Qwerty keyboard
Communication : 802.11b ou GSM/GPRS

MS OS included:
- browser: Internet Explorer 5.5
- Pocket Outlook - (Email – Contacts – Agenda)
- Pocket Word - Pocket Excel -
- Pocket PowerPoint -
- Windows media Player -
- terminal emulator -
- voice recorder-
- Calculator
- Freecell
- Solitaire -
- ActivSync -

if we want that there will be another OS option, such as a Symbian one, we'll have to keep on supporting the petition at
http://www.petitiononline.com/nbookpro/petition.html

(1067 signatures until now, and the number steadily keeps on growing...)

cheers

gianluca

[markdeppe]

Thanks for keeping us posted gianluca.

I am a bit confused or maybe I misunderstood Harvey, but I thought he said the netbook pro was not going to be a device with such apps on it, having only customised commercial specific apps, instead of being a laptop / psion netbook replacement, saying that it would not be running comparable programs to the current ER5?

For me if the new netbook runs a word processor email, web, sheet, data and agenda apps then it would fullfil my requirements (and could run phoneman in the MS version). That said I would be loathed to learn a new OS and short cuts etc., and would not consider moving if it was prone to viruses, random lock ups, and alsoi f it were not possible to easily convert my psion files to run on the new platform - so I still have a lot of reservations. That said I am still excitied to see the netbook evolving, as evoltution often branches in interesting and unexpected ways :-)

[daniel_harker]

Is any one else signed up with the Yahoo! Psion Group?

Only, I noticed that there has been no mention of the netbook Pro in there - I have mentioned it - perhaps the people on it live in a cave; I have told them about the petition, so maybe we will see the petition's size increase :-)

[daniel_harker]

Originally posted by markdeppe
Thanks for keeping us posted gianluca.

I am a bit confused or maybe I misunderstood Harvey, but I thought he said the netbook pro was not going to be a device with such apps on it, having only customised commercial specific apps, instead of being a laptop / psion netbook replacement, saying that it would not be running comparable programs to the current ER5?



Harvey may be referring to Psion's own standard, where as the site cangiante told us about is adding these applications themselves.

Just a guess.

Cangiante, most the sites you mention are in spanish (If I remember right), why french all of a sudden - I can read some spanish, butr very little french!

[daniel_harker]

It was once suggested on this forum that Microsod probably had psion ensnared in a contract by which they cannot create a Symbian nB Pro if they create a Win CE version

However, The Psion netPad could be EPOC or Win CE

[markdeppe]

daniel_harker: Interesting idea. My question is then if it is the case that this is an independent reseller putting what they want on it, then how big a barrier is it for someone to put symbian on it, or palm OS or LINUX etc. The impression I was getting from Harvey was that it definitly was not going to be a replacement for the current netbook, yet the model described in the link sounds like a very good replacement, and that it was not going to be an open system for people to run what they like on it.

[daniel_harker]

Now there is a thought.

Of course, with a french website it's not much used to Britain or America (Take your pick :-) )

I heard POS were obtaining manufacturing rights for some of the Psion machines, so maybe EPOC isn't dead yet.

I was amazed when Psion got scared of Pocket PCs and Palms because the versatility of a Psion is unbeatable.

I used to have a 3MX. My nan and grandad bought it for my 11th birthday. My family were aware that I was fascinated with computers, yet did not have one. My nan was adament that I would have one, just so as I could do my homework.

2 years ago I bought a Series 5 from a friend; it was not up until then that we discovered that I was entitled to use in school.

Not long after we disovered this, I dropped the 5 (ooops) and it stopped working and my family did their best to get the money for a repair, but in the end, it took until last december, when I got my first part time job, for me to have the money to get it repaired

I use it for all my school work. I could never do that witrh a palm, the keyboard or the OCR pad that my teacher uses would be to slow and aggrivating to use.

Within the next few weeks I'm going to buy a netBook.

I am also considering buying an XDA, and I am a bit peaved that I cannot find a similar device with Symbian loaded, although I could go for the Sony Erricson P800, but I don't really like the look of it.

[ktkawabe]

Originally posted by daniel_harker
Harvey may be referring to Psion's own standard, where as the site cangiante told us about is adding these applications themselves.If these people really sell the thing with office suite, and if Psion standardly doesn't, then it might be that these people order Psion to supply Office thing as an option. I don't think that it's an easy and profitable job for VAR and such to build their own ROM image, licensed from Microsoft and Psion T.

By the way, a visitor from Japan has shown me his Sigmarion III from NTT Docomo, and I have to say I was impressed. The hardware spec is roughly similar to that of netBook Pro, i.e. XScale PXA255, 800x480 TFT LCD etc., with less peripheral options than nB Pro, and the OS is the same (Windows CE .NET 4). It's much smaller than netBook, a bit larger than S5 but not much (definitely it could make S5 replacement in principle). This means that the screen is eye-hurtingly finely pitched, but of course you can make the fonts in the apps larger. The keyboard was OK, probably on par as Revo.

I didn't have time to test the apps in detail, but the document browser called "PICSEL Viewer" was among the best I've ever seen on ANY handheld device. It can display html, pdf, plain text, word, excel, powerpoint, flash and various graphics. The user interface was very well thought-out. For example you tap the screen, tap the same spot again and drag without raising the pen, and the view is zoomed in/out accordingly in real-time, very smoothly. Open a pdf file, zoom in and in and in and no jaggedness at all.

The user interface of the shell was OK, and together with these silkscreen icons that they must have copied the concept from somewhere, it was actually useable :)

Interestingly, it doesn't have any office applications. There's a half-powered Word replacement, but no excel, no Access (data), no powerpoint. Apparently WinCE .NET is sold to the hardware manufacturers in more modular manner than older WinCEs.

But the most impressive part is the price. It's mind-bogglingly cheap. You can go to Akihabara and get that under 50,000 JPY I was told, that is less than 385 EUR! I checked the web pages of Japanese shops and that was true.
They say that this insane price is because Docomo is selling Sigmarion as a tool to promote their mobile data communication tariffe, from which they are making money. So the profit margin should be VERY thin, but not so far as to be accused of illegal dumping I guess.

I wonder if the market Psion T is thinking of is going to be tough for them in the future. First, apparently these gigantic companies like Docomo and NEC knows how to make good WinCE devices cheap. Psion T's strength as a hardware manufacturer is in making tough, rugged devices. And there're always going to be some demands for ruggedness. However, if they can buy 3 or 4 units of less-rugged but otherwise similar devices from other company for a price of one netBook Pro, probably less-demanding applications can do well with less-rugegd things. And second, as a software company Psion T is supplying custom-made software for specific needs of their customers. And Psion T knows about the target hardware better than anybody else. However, again together with the cheap hardware price of the potential competitors, small companies may think that it's better to find some software firm and order some special software for them running on cheap hardwares. With the same budget, they can spare MUCH more on software if they go for cheaper hardware.

Just my thought.
Keita

[BradC]

ktkawabe- do you think a Sigmarion will ever be released in english that runs on the GSM network?

[nclark]

Originally posted by cangiante
--Ports : Rs232, IRDA, USB


MS OS included:
- Pocket PowerPoint -


This doesn't make much sense without an sVGA output port. You'd need to use a PCMCIA Voyager type card again.

[ktkawabe]

Hi BradC,do you think a Sigmarion will ever be released in english that runs on the GSM network?Probably no, because NEC (the real manufacturer of Sigmarion) has been very clear so far that it doesn't intend to sell that under its own name.

Cheers,
Keita

[ktkawabe]

Hi Nick,

Sure, it's better if you don't have to buy additional things, but to me it seems to make sense to supply view-only solution.

Isn't it possible to think in this way? Once in a while people send me presentations that I myself am not going to perform, and I actually hoped in the past if I could view them without any conversion on my netBook. Maybe it's helpful for some people to be able to view powerpoint. And if you have to do presentation on your new device, you can buy additional PCMCIA or CF VGA adapter.

Cheers,
Keita

[bradm]

Maybe we should be directing the petition at Sony-Ericsson. The new Sony UX50 clamshell, while not exactly a Netbook, is certainly a step in the right direction.

Check it out:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=6a6QT9yF8xCQDOOZdiiaRJOIVdcwr8XN7E8=?Cat alogCategoryID=0ScKC0%2eNFCcAAAD2WXHZ7HTA&ProductID=1GoKC0%2eNc3MAAAD24TbZ7HTG&Dept=hp

I'd love to have one of those running Symbian ER7, and sony-ericsson are the people to do it.

Regards
Brad

[cangiante]

Ciao Everybody!

Under the summer sun, here are some fresh pieces of
information about the nB pro.

it seems that the French are taking over as this is actually the second official site dealing with the new machine:
http://www.pageup.fr/index.html
_

FICHE TECHNIQUE

Processeur et Mémoire : Intel PXA250 (SA-2)
(32-bit ARM 9TE) (400MHz),
32MB Flash (OS), 64MB SDRAM / 128MB SDRAM.


Système d'exploitation :
Microsoft Windows CE 4.1

Ecran Graphique_: 800x600 SVGA TFT 18 bit couleur,
rétro éclairage


Communication :
Accès à la prise Jack pour casque téléphone,
port USB
Modem intégré,
possibilité d’intégration de BlueTooth

Entrées / sorties : IrDA
1.1 (115Kbit/sec);
1 port série RS232 (115Kbit/sec).


Alimentation : batterie rechargeable Lithium Ion 2200mAH
Batterie de sauvegarde AAA standards. Autonomie : 8 heures.


_
Référence
Matériel
Prix
H.T
NC
NC
NC
_

Afficher le PDF
_

but there is something even better... you can download the pdf material at
http://www.pageup.fr/produits/terminaux/pdf/PAGE%20UP%20-%20NETBOOK%20PRO.pdf

there is only an alternative to this...
signing the netBook pro petition at
www.petitiononline.com/nbookpro/petition.html

cheers

gianluca

[wanman]

Certainly looks cool but it seems to be advertised with Windows CE installed which is not going to be automatic. I suppose we will have to see what else is released. mmmm silvery !!!

[nclark]

Looks very interesting, even with CE (please don't flame ;-)).
Backup battery AAA?
Where's the SDIO slot?
When can I get one, and how much? More waiting!

[wanman]

I know there are some bizarre facts which make me think that all this may not be completely correct. Especially after lengthy posts from Harvey, confirming the lack of Windows CE as standard !!

[cshandley]

Hi all,

It occurs to me that since the Pro is so similar looking to the original Netbook, perhaps it uses exactly the same battery shape & connections?

If so, then it seems we should be able to buy one of the "refillable battery Lithium Ion 2200mAH" intended for a Pro, and install it in our current Netbooks.

Since the existing batteries have 1500mAH capacity, this means we should expect an almost 50 percent increase in battery life! Yes, that means 10 hours instead of 7, or 7.5 hours instead of 5 :-)
---
Chris Handley

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by cangiante
Système d'exploitation :
Microsoft Windows CE 4.1A very appropriate description for a Microsoft product! Do the French know something we don't? :D

[MartinG]

Hi Nick,

Originally posted by nclark
Backup battery AAA?

Looking at the PDF file, it looks like it takes a couple of AAA's under the left hand 'cover' at the top of the keyboard (where the memory expansion module goes on the existing nB)

Where's the SDIO slot?

Again from the PDF it looks like it's under the front left-hand edge of the nBPro. There's no existing/equivalent slot on the existing machine - this is a new I/O slot...

Also interesting to see where the've put the USB, kept the RS232, and added the internal modem port...

Looks like a lovely machine - apart from the OS. :(

Martin

[MikeW]

Those that are seriously looking at going down the Netbook Pro route should have a look at the Microsoft document which describes what applications are available in CE NET compared with Pocket PC 2002 & Windows Mobile 2003. You maybe in for a shock as there virtually no user applications as standard in the Windows CE NET version & most can't even be purchased as separate items.

You can download the Microsoft document from here (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=111fe6d5-b0e1-4887-8070-be828e50faa9&DisplayLang=en)

Mike

[markdeppe]

Stargazer: Thanks for you insightful observations "Système d'exploitation", I do enjoy them, I particularly liked the Golmerts wince presentation shot, no bugs just viruses and worms :-)

[markdeppe]

MikeW: Thanks for that. Unfortunatly I can not read the document as I only have a netbook is there a text only version or maybe you could copy and paste email me a copy.

Also excuse my ignorance could someone give me a brief explanation of what they mean by embedded - "Windows CE .NET is designed to target a broader range of embedded devices. Given the array of embedded devices that may be created using Windows CE .NET, there are no sta..........................."

[MAlexander]

"Embedded" means a computer that is part of some other device. Imagine a WinCE machine as part of your refrigerator.

I just installed Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 2003 and one of the things they are pushing in that version is the use of .NET to develop programs for embedded devices. I don't think many people are doing this yet, but Microsoft would like you to do so for fairly obvious reasons.

[wanman]

Hi Mark,

I have converted that document to both HTML (for opera) and ER5 Word format. The html is closest to the original format but opera takes an age to display the text as the document is quite big. The ER5 word version is probably best for viewing on your netbook.

Regards

Si

[markdeppe]

Thanks Si, excellent

[cangiante]

Ciao all!

the day has come: five months after the mobileforce forum in Milan here are the first official news of the new machine with M$ win CE.net OS. those interested may browse on over the following links:

press release:
http://www.psionteklogix.com/public.aspx?s=us&p=News&POid=478

netbook pro details
http://www.psionteklogix.com/public.aspx?s=com&p=Products&pCat=128&pID=988

netbook pro specs
http://www.psionteklogix.com/assets/downloadable/NETBOOK_PRO_A4.pdf

it is extremely likely that the new machine is actually displayed at the Smau fair in Milan (starting today and lasting until october 6th)

[WolfUK]

The Register are also suggesting a list price of £950 in the UK and $1500 in the US (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/33172.html).

[cangiante]

Ciao all,

after 15.789 views I think it may be useful to start a new thread about the subject of a netBook pro Symbian.

those interested in such a topic, please browse on over the following link:

http://www.pdastreet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=107341#post107341

all the very best

SYMBIANfully yours

[juliette]

Spam message posted across eight forums deleted

[bish]

Does anyone know if the CE.net OS will run on an existing netBook loading the symbian OS from a CF card? ..... or does onehave to buy the complete netbook and CE.net OS for big bucks?

[donkeyontheedge]

Different hardware - it's not going to work.

[JasonD]

I know this is an amazingly old thread that has had many many adamant follows over the years but since Nokia (the new owners of the Symbian / EPOC Operating system) have decided to release the code under an open source licence, whether this does 2 things.


fulfils the requirements we wanted all those years ago?
and if so, if there is still enough interest for us to make this work! ?

So guys and gals, what do you think?

[donkeyontheedge]

What exactly have Nokia decided to release? I am not aware of this...
Any links or exact details?
John

[JasonD]

http://www.symbian.org/ is the new home for Symbian under a foundation not owned (yet sponsored) by Nokia.

The first time I was aware of this happening was earlier this year - http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-207981.html

Today's news that QT was to be pushed by Nokia made led me to this old post. http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSLR38529320091027

[donkeyontheedge]

Come to think of it I remember the open foundation announcement now. Not sure how much it applied to us though.

The UI's being open sourced is good, more is always better, but to be honest, even if the entirety of the Symbian source code was published, it is not going to be much use without the specific tools for getting the OS built for the netBook. For that to happen, we would need the tools/code from Psion itself and I seem to remember them saying it would never happen.

If we had those tools, we could put any modern OS onto the netBook such as linux, directly into the ROM similar to how EPOC is loaded, rather than relying on ARLO etc.

John