New Sony clamshell!!

[amitchell]

Sony are about to release another clie but this one is a landscape clamshell with a 'proper' keyboard and a screen which can swivel round. Look here for pictures:

http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20628

This is *exactly* what I was talking about a couple of years ago for a new Psion. Maybe if this is popular, we may see more clamshells - all we need now is for Sony to use Epoc ;-)

Austin.

[WolfUK]

Nice isn't it.:) I think that if it has a good battery life then this could do really well and with Palm moving towards OS6 the future isn't looking too bad after all.

[Jim Cooke]

Hmmm...I think I'll not join the panting masses too quickly on this one. Sony is once again creating a device with screen dimensions different from any other Palm OS machine. It's going to take a while before the software catches up. The keyboard looks like the same type of chiclet keyboard on the NX series, although better spaced. If this is the case, the Revo keyboard is a work of art by comparision. :) Plus, this thing is fat! Going by the dimensions I've seen so far, it seem to be almost as fat as a 5mx when closed.

It'll be interesting to see how this new Clie works out but I won't be the first one in line to buy one.

[WolfUK]

I am sure that it will support applications at both 160x160 and 320x320 and I have seen a screenshot where it is used in portrait mode with a virtual grafitti area at the bottom similar to Sony's current 320x480 screens. The keyboard does not look as good as the Revo's but it does look better than the current crop of thumbboards courtesy of the extra spacing between the keys. It is also backlit which is good for lowlight (or completely dark) situations. As for the size, a Palm Tunsgent T (which fits easily into my trouser pockets) is about 10cm x 7.5cm x 1.5cm and this new device is only 10cm x 8.5cm x 1.8cm so it's not much bigger than it (and that is a closed Tungsten, not even opened out).

I am personally quite optimistic about this device but I think that it would be worth waiting for a second or third iteration of it to try to get one without a camera (why are Sony obsessed with putting a camera in everything?) and with any initial teething problems solved. However, for a bluetooth, wireless and pocketable device with a keyboard running a stable OS (Palm OS5 is pretty good) then I think that this might well be the new perfect PDA for me.

[Jim Cooke]

Simon,

I'm always a little leary about the measurements given for these thing without knowing how they did them. It lists the UX40 as being about .7 inches thick compared to the 5mx at .9 inches but I have no idea if they measured it at the least deep part of the machine or not. It appears to have a lot of protroubernaces that could lead to a number of different ways to measure depth..

I'm also a little confused about the total RAM and what it does. My reading is that even though it has over 100mb of RAM, there's only about 32Mbs actually available for running programs.

The clamshell description is also a little misleading since it's really more of a tablet PC type of configuration. Given the problems already seen with the 5mx screen cable, I'm more than a little worried about the mechanical complexity of the thing.

Plus, the darn thing still can't multitask. I assume the OS6 will solve that problem but $700 is a lot of money to pay for what's already an obsolete operating system.

The interesting thing though is how the industry seems to be returning to the original Psion form factor, if a little more compact and in color. It certainly seems like Psion could have been a survivor in the market if they had more capital and maybe were willing to take more risks.

[WolfUK]

I'm always a little leary about the measurements given for these thing without knowing how they did them. It lists the UX40 as being about .7 inches thick compared to the 5mx at .9 inches but I have no idea if they measured it at the least deep part of the machine or not. It appears to have a lot of protroubernaces that could lead to a number of different ways to measure depth.Agreed ... There is an element of deception that always goes into these measurements and the only real way to see if this is a pocketable device is to see it in person. The basic machine may be thin but there are add-ons which will bulk it out such as battery packs, etc.

I'm also a little confused about the total RAM and what it does. My reading is that even though it has over 100mb of RAM, there's only about 32Mbs actually available for running programs.You're not the only one ... I still haven't seen an explanation of this that I am happy with! :confused:

The clamshell description is also a little misleading since it's really more of a tablet PC type of configuration. Given the problems already seen with the 5mx screen cable, I'm more than a little worried about the mechanical complexity of the thing.My understanding is that this device can be used as a clamshell or as a tablet. This is how some of the existing Sony devices work and it looks as if it uses the same swivel 'technology' as those do. I haven't heard any reports of problems of them failing yet but then again they have only been around for around 18 months at most IIRC. This is definitely a good reason to hang on for a bit to see how these devices behave in the real world.

Plus, the darn thing still can't multitask. I assume the OS6 will solve that problem but $700 is a lot of money to pay for what's already an obsolete operating system.Don't say that to people thinking of buying a new netBook before Teklogix stops producing them! ;) OS6 sounds good (from the little that I know of it) and, although I don't think that it will be as great as ER5 it will at least support current technologies. Not having true multi-tasking isn't ideal but at least most Palm applications handle this fairly well by saving their state before exiting.

The interesting thing though is how the industry seems to be returning to the original Psion form factor, if a little more compact and in color. It certainly seems like Psion could have been a survivor in the market if they had more capital and maybe were willing to take more risks.Indeed and it is bitter-sweet seeing Sony now develop a clamshell device. It is also very annoying seeing ignorant Pocket PC fanboys bleating on about how the design was stolen from the early WinCE devices!! :mad:

[Jim Cooke]

Simon,

I don't see ER5 as an obsolete operating system - it's just not being produced any more (or at least only in very small numbers). The OS still does things that even the latest Pocket PC's can't do and Palm can't even come close to. OTOH, the Palm OS is really a cobbled together mess with Sony not running quite the same OS as Palm. I think Palm has to come up with a true multitasking OS with the next version if they expect to survive. They've been able to get away with not having multitasking because the apps were generally small and quick. Even with the ARM processor, it can be painfully slow to switch from one program to another, especially if it's graphics intensive. The addition of expansion cards has just made this situation worse.

The whole RAM spec thing on the UX-40 seems to be deliberately confusing. I think Sony is touting this as the first handheld with more than 100 megs of RAM but the point is rather academic if most of it isn't acccesible to the user.

I have seens some reports of the hinges binding and even breaking off of some NX series machines. As you say, they haven't been around all that long and the market penitration is still fairly small. I examined the hinge assembley on an NX-70. It has to not just fold over but also swivel. I have no idea how the screen portion is connected to the main body of the machine but the whole thing looked pretty flimsy to me. Of course, Sony's marketing plan may be to produce a new "wow" machine very year so the real gadget freaks never have enough time to break the one they have.:)

>>It is also very annoying seeing ignorant Pocket PC fanboys bleating on about how the design was stolen from the early WinCE devices!!<<

Yes, and we all know how successful WinCE clamshells were, don't we? ;) Still, I think the Sony design is on the right track. I think Psion always tried to design machines with a good to great keyboard being one of the main features. While this appeals to writers and others who need to enter large amounts of text, the vast majority of users don't fall in that category. Grafitti and Jot can both be a pain to use and adding a tolerable keyboard allows most users to do what they want - type in an appointment or short note without fumbling for a stylus or having to remember which stroke makes a "Y". Sony is presenting a great challenge to Pcoket PC's since there's no comparable form factor. There's not much difference any more between what Sony and a Pocket PC offer in terms of multimedia, bluetooth, or wi-fi. The addition of what's at least a tolerably useful keyboard may turn out to be a great selling point. It will be interesting to see if Toshiba or Compaq come out with something similar for the Pocket PC.

[WolfUK]

Jim,

Hard as it is to say, I don't think that ER5 can be considered anything but obsolete. It is no longer being developed and there are no devices with the OS being manufactured. Additionally, apart from some old stocks and reconditioned machines it is not possible to buy a new device that includes the OS. The argument that it is better than the current Palm and Pocket PC OSs is true but again not valid in terms of obsolesence ... Betamax was better than VHS but it is very, very obsolete.

You are very right however in that Palm OS5 is very cobbled together and their memory limitation (4k for a memo!!) is terrible and their support for memory cards is really quite pathetic. OS6 should be a new beginning for Palm and with the Beos developers on board I'm hoping for something quite special. I also think you are right that Sony seem to try to release new devices with such regularity that the older ones don't even get a chance to break-down. I don't have huge amounts of faith in their hinge/swivel system but it has been developed years after Psion decided to use a crappy cable in the 5 series so maybe it will last longer than some of the Psion cables.

Finally, as you say, Sony have thrown down the gauntlet to Pocket PC manufacturers but after the initial WinCE clamshell devices I do wonder how many of them would be willing to take up the challenge. However, as a true gadget geek I am looking forward to seeing what the next few years brings in terms of new toys although I do expect to have my Psions running in the background for as long as they last.

[ktkawabe]

Hi Jim and Simon,

As for size, it's not that thick (approximately the same as the thinnest part of S5). It's not that thin, either, but it's not that bad. In Tokyo they can go to SONY show-room and use the thing, and several users have published their "first impression"s. According to them, it is really small and pocketable (much smaller than Linux Zaurus). And these words are from those obsessed-by-smallness kind of Japanese.

As for memory, 106Mb is the sum of EVERYTHING on this device, i.e. 8Mb for the integrated RAM on the ARM chip, and the rest for SDRAM PLUS flash memory. I don't know anything about palm OS, but from the spec of the hardware (maximum 123MHz clock for ARM core) and what this machine is capable of (e.g. smooth video playback), I guess they're using a dedicated hardware DSP chip for decoding video that probably share some memory with CPU. Probably the video screen also takes some SDRAM. WLAN, BT, and camera take some flash area for firmware I'm sure. Also, since no ROM is mentioned I guess the OS is loaded to RAM from flash. And this and that, and finally there're 16Mb SDRAM and 22Mb flash left for your consumption. Saying all these, I'm also confused:)

As for price, in Japan they say it's going to be sold at 69,800 JPY (USD540 or something like that?) so I think USD700 for US is a bit outrageous.

The appearance is similar to clamshell Linux Zaurus. If you make this clie larger probably people can't say the difference!Sony have thrown down the gauntlet to Pocket PC manufacturersThere're two WinCE HPC clamshell devices being sold, i.e. NTT Docomo Sigmarion III and NEC Mobile Pro 900. I don't know Mobile Pro but Sigmarion III seems to be successful.

Cheers,
Keita

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by WolfUK
Don't say that to people thinking of buying a new netBook before Teklogix stops producing them! ;) Ahem! ;) I'm not thinking about it, I'm definitely doing it! It's not obsolete in terms of my personal requirements, and so long as I still have a cellphone which can connect with it via IR, a netBook should do all I need for the next few years.

I concede to Simon's superior knowledge on the Palm OS - I've never even considered Palm because I'm one of the seeming minority who absolutely must have a decent keyboard. The one on this Sony device looks dire to me, so at the moment it's a total non-starter.

(Sorry, just a little personal rant!)

Anyhow, looking towards a possible solution to the keyboard problem, has anyone seen or tried one of these "Half-Keyboards"?

http://www.halfkeyboard.com/

This looks like a great idea to me - it has proper "touch-typeable" keys and allows you to type with one hand, whilst using stylus on PDA screen with the other. I've tried out the emulator and found it surprisingly easy to get the hang of in just a few minutes.

The first thing I want to know is, will it work with the P800?

Julie
<heading off to the Symbian Smartphones forum :) >

[WolfUK]

It's not obsolete in terms of my personal requirements, and so long as I still have a cellphone which can connect with it via IR, a netBook should do all I need for the next few years.As long as people, myself included, are happy to use ER5 you are right that it is not obsolete for us but in terms of an operating system in the grand scheme of things it is. I'm sure that there are people still using OS2 and Commodore 64s but I wouldn't say that they were still alive and kicking.

I concede to Simon's superior knowledge on the Palm OS - I've never even considered Palm because I'm one of the seeming minority who absolutely must have a decent keyboard. The one on this Sony device looks dire to me, so at the moment it's a total non-starter.*bows* Thank you! ;) I'm not suggesting that this is a perfect Psion replacement by any stretch of the imagination but I am pleased to see a major PDA manufacturer developing a clamshell device. It's going to be very hard for someone to beat the 5mx (a 5mx running an alternative OS but with all of the associated new technologies including a colour screen, etc. wouldn't please everyone) but maybe in the next couple of years a decent clamshell device will be developed that has a really good keyboard. After all, I imagine that Psion could licence the keyboard design of the 5mx o even the Revo if they chose to.

[markdeppe]

Julie: <<< http://www.halfkeyboard.com/ This looks like a great idea to me .....I've tried out the emulator and found it surprisingly easy to get the hang of in just a few minutes. >>>>

This must be a "girl" thing (multitasking, thinking upside down and backtofront), I had a go, and it made my dyslexia seem like a mild impediment. "surprisingly easy", LOL, left right brain thingy or maybe a Mars versus Venus issue.

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by markdeppe
... "surprisingly easy", LOL, left right brain thingy or maybe a Mars versus Venus issue. Mark

"Surprisingly easy" was quoted in direct relation to my original thoughts on this, which were "this is going to be impossible!" I'm not saying I could rattle along at 80 wpm, but I did find it workable, and preferable by far to using a stylus for input.

I'm not sure it's a Mars/Venus issue - I think that my long experience as a touch-typist has more to do with it. :)

Julie

[markdeppe]

<<<but I did find it workable, and preferable by far to using a stylus for input.>>>

Shocked, gasp: what use use would a psion devotee have for such trinkets. "Stylus input" such words; sounds like the palm / non psion virus has infected you Julie, quick, reboot, wash mouth out, and return to nice safe keyboard and netbook environment :-)

[dgduris]

Hello all.

I am new to this forum, but came here having seen the new Sony Clie' and being interested into whether it might be the replacement for my 5mx.

I know almost nothing about Palms, having used Psions since 1992.

Is there a document or a collected body of knowledge that compares Palm's OS5 to our dear EPOC release 5 - or is it safe to assume that if you can do it on your Psion, you'll be able to do it on a Palm running OS5 or later (though I know there is no replacement for my favorite app, Mentor)?

Cheers,

Richard

[Jim Cooke]

Richard,

The Palm OS5 in in no way comparable to ER5. The first weakness is the OS5 cannot multitask. Even though most Palm apps open pretty quickly, it's not the same as being able to switch between running apps like you can do on the ER5 OS. Copying and pasting between apps is more difficult or impossible with OS5. There's also no proper file system that you can control - the Palm OS puts things where it needs to compared to being able to set up folders and arrange things as you like on ER5.

The conversion between Excel and Word files on the Palm is not as good as on ER5. For example, I just converted an Excel 2000 spreadsheet to both ER5 and my Palm. While both retained the text formating, the Palm conversion lost the row height format. Even the better screen on the new Sony will not show as much data as a 5mx.

Of course, the Sony has the advantage of color and a much better screen. The tradeoff is battery life that is significantly worse than the 5mx and you need to recharge fairly frequently compared to just carrying a few extra batteries like you can with the 5mx. The Sony is much smaller and lighter though, which can be a big factor.

I haven't been able to try the keyboard on the new Sony but, form the pictures, it appears to no better and looks worse than the 5mx keyboard. Assuming the Sony operates the same way as current OS5 machines, you also need to use the stylus much more frequently since there are no keyboard shortcuts for many of the operations. While the thumbwheel helps, you still have to take your hands off the keyboard many more time than the Psion. OTOH, you can fold over the Sony and use just stylus input, something you can't do with the Psion.

The built-in software that come with the Sony is inferior to the 5mx in a number of ways. The datebook program is very limited although you can buy DateBk5, which is clearly superior to the Psion Agenda. The addressbook program is about equal to the Psion contacts app. There is no Database software included but you can buy HanDbase, which is superior to Psion Data but still inferior to PsiDat on the 5mx, which is free.

The Sony will have bluetooth and wi-fi, which can be a boon if you need these things. The 5mx is pretty much out of the running there. I don't know what web browser is included but it can't be much worse than Opera. :)

It's a tough choice. If you want color, a keyboard, and small size, the Sony is certainly a great contender. It does some things much better than the Psion and others much worse. Since I already use both a Palm and a 5mx, I'm keeping an open mind but I'm not ready to ditch my 5mx just yet.

[dgduris]

Jim,

Thanks for the information.

I had been chided recently by someone who told me that OS5 is a 32 bit OS as is EPOC and that it could indeed multitask. I was surprised as I have always felt that lacking the ability to multitask relegates Palms to the bin of replacements for the daily schedule index card administrative assistants type up for their bosses.

Looks as though I'll keep my 5mx a while longer (not a bad thing, really). ;) Perhaps we'll get a new "psion-ish" unit from a Symbian member in the not too distant future.

Cheers,


Richard.

P.S.: How are things up Petaluma way?

[WolfUK]

Originally posted by dgduris
I had been chided recently by someone who told me that OS5 is a 32 bit OS as is EPOC and that it could indeed multitask. I was surprised as I have always felt that lacking the ability to multitask relegates Palms to the bin of replacements for the daily schedule index card administrative assistants type up for their bosses.First, it's a good idea to keep hold of your 5mx if it does what you want it to. Why change just for the sake of it? Regarding multi-tasking, the way that Palms work means that it effectively emulates a multi-tasking system in the when you leave an application and return to the launcher the application's state is 'frozen' so when you reload that application it is as you left it. In fact, the only way this emulation of multi-tasking might affect you is if an application is slow to launch which, with the new ARM processors, is a rare occurance.

I also feel that the attitude that since something doesn't multi-task relegates it to a simple daily schedule index card replacement is somewhat blinkered and perhaps you need to research what Palms (and maybe Pocket PCs) can do before writing them off. Maybe some people take the attitude that a non-colour device belongs in the 1990s. Maybe some people want to be able to convert Word document that contain tables and imaged between their PC and their handheld device without everything being converted to greyscale or loosing the tables and images entirely. Maybe some people want a spreadsheet application that can handle more than one worksheet. I'm not saying that Palms are perfect, not by a long stretch, but Psions aren't either and people mush choose whichever tool suits their needs the best.