BlueChart and Topo

[lostagain]

I just got my iQue last night. It's very limited without a memory card. I'll be ordering some memory today.

Even though I'm a Mac user, I'm not even bothering trying to make VPC work. I went right to the PC.

But my real question is about BlueCharts. I noticed in the prefs there's a place where you can specify simple prefs for Marine or Topo maps. Has anybody had any experience loading BlueCharts (or topo maps) onto on iQue. Did it work? How well?

BTW, I previously had a SPIII (which I managed to lose!), and iQue seems much faster. But I haven't really done anything beyond play with it at this point.

[CaptMyCapt]

Originally posted by lostagain
But my real question is about BlueCharts. I noticed in the prefs there's a place where you can specify simple prefs for Marine or Topo maps. Has anybody had any experience loading BlueCharts (or topo maps) onto on iQue. Did it work? How well?

I'm interested in replies to this question as well. Since this unit is so new, probably few have played with the Marine functionality. I'm currently using the Garmin GPS Map76 (Garmin's latest handheld prior to the iQue). While its fine for land travel, I purchased it as a backup system while sailing, and it's wonderful. It is very easy to select maps and create routes on the PC and download them to the Map76. The downside is that downloading from the PC to the Map76 is very slow, even via USB. My guess is this problem has been cared for with the iQue. The Map76 is also Greyscale only (so, color must be marvelous), and it has very limited memory (no expansion capability) with only 24 meg, so, I'm constantly unloading and loading maps and routes as I sail the Chesapeake Bay, Atlantic Ocean & Caribbean Islands, and Gulf of Mexico. I feel confident the iQue will be a breeze in working with Bluecharts, since this is Garmin's forte. I've purchased Garmin's last four GPS handhelds and each have been significantly easier to load and operate than the previous model. So, I'll jump all over the iQue when I get it, and since Garmin allows you to use two handhelds without having to repurchase the Bluechart software, I have one less financial worry.

[lostagain]

I also wrote to Garmin with this question, and got a quick response. I don't think they would mind me sharing it...


---BEGIN GARMIN RESPONSE---

...It will load and draw the detail from the
BlueChart CD unlocked and loaded to it. The main limitation is with the
finds...it won't support the full scope of them. It won't find anchorages,
lights, etc. With Fishing Hot Spots, it won't find nearest fishing areas,
etc. Such data will be in the device and will draw...it is just that the
automatic find won't work.

With BlueChart, it won't give the full scope of the navaids. If you click
on one, it might say "starboard light" or "light," whereas with a plotter
you would get height, height above datum, etc...more detailed info about the
navaid. But it will draw it.

The iQue 3600 won't do tide predictions, either.

And keep in mind, it is not a hearty unit, with regard to weather and water.
Be careful with it.

---END GARMIN RESPONSE---

I followed up saying thank you and mentioning that there's other tide prediction software available for the Palm. I also suggested that some people might be willing to pay a bit more for a software enhancement that would give full chartplotter functionality. The Garmin response to that wasn't completely negative. I may have been seeing what I want to see, but it read like we might be seeing some software enhancements akin to what I was suggesting in the future.

There's also a few waterproof PDA cases out there. I'm sure some will fit the iQue.

[ebolean]

I just heard about the 3600 today and started to investigate on the net. WOW - now if I could just buy one somewhere.

Being a sailor, one of the first things I thought of was using it on the water. I thrashed around the garmin site and couldn't really get a handle how the blue charts work. Is there a symbol/icon on the screen that shows where you are on the chart?

Thanks.

Bob

[CaptMyCapt]

Originally posted by ebolean
Being a sailor, one of the first things I thought of was using it on the water.
Bob
To answer your second question there is certainly a symbol (on all GPS Marine units) to depict where your boat is in reference to your surroundings. To answer your first question, Bluecharts work just like the maps used for land navigation (as you may know, maps are for land, and charts are for water). You would have a base map already on the unit (Americas for you - based on your Maryland location). You would then need to unlock a set of charts for the mid-Atlantic (which includes the Chesapeake Bay), if that's where you'll be sailing. You would be able to download the charts needed from your computer (which would have been copied from the Bluecharts CD). On the iQue, it looks like you'll be able to load all the charts you want on an SD card, should you want more that what the iQue itself holds. That's the good news.

Now, for the bad news! I suggest you heed all warnings! The iQue may not meet all your marine navigation requirements, including having marine symbols (buoys, wreckages, anchorages, etc.) I am an avid sailor, having done significant bay and ocean sailing. I'm very, very critical about what a marine product delivers. Afterall, you can't just pull over in a boat when you're in deep water and something bad happens (e.g., weather, coral, etc.). Weather and water poses the biggest threats to safe sailing and if the GPS unit isn't focused on those, you're asking for trouble with Davy Jones and his shark friends.

I see you're from Maryland, so, I would guess most of your sailing is on the Chesapeake Bay (BTW, isn't the CB the most wonderful sailing you've ever done? And it has some of the best anchorages in the world). If your reason for purchasing the iQue is primarily for marine navigation, be careful, as suggested by the GARMIN'S response ("And keep in mind, it is not a hearty unit, with regard to weather and water. Be careful with it") in lostagain's post.

I've been using Garmin's Handheld units, upgrading to newer models as they were released, for almost a decade. You may want to consider a Garmin (you've seen their offerings on their website) dedicated to marine navigation since it appears the iQue will be severly limited for marine navigation purposes. This is based on my own discussions with Garmin. So, again, make certain you're getting what meets your needs. If the land navigation and palm functions is your stick, then the iQue sounds marvelous. If your stick is primarily marine navigation, most legitimate reveiws pick Gamin units over equivalent competitor units. And the GPS Map76S, which I've been using for a couple years now, does it all. Again, the downside is B&W and no expansion, so, you can't load a lot of charts. I've found myself reloading (due to lack of memory in the unit) charts as I've sailed from Annapolis to Key West, Fl., as an example. -- Fair Winds!--

[ebolean]

Originally posted by CaptMyCapt

To answer your second question there is certainly a symbol (on all GPS Marine units) to depict where your boat is in reference to your surroundings. To answer your first question, Bluecharts work just like the maps used for land navigation (as you may know, maps are for land, and charts are for water). You would have a base map already on the unit (Americas for you - based on your Maryland location). You would then need to unlock a set of charts for the mid-Atlantic (which includes the Chesapeake Bay), if that's where you'll be sailing. You would be able to download the charts needed from your computer (which would have been copied from the Bluecharts CD). On the iQue, it looks like you'll be able to load all the charts you want on an SD card, should you want more that what the iQue itself holds. That's the good news.

Now, for the bad news! I suggest you heed all warnings! The iQue may not meet all your marine navigation requirements, including having marine symbols (buoys, wreckages, anchorages, etc.) I am an avid sailor, having done significant bay and ocean sailing. I'm very, very critical about what a marine product delivers. Afterall, you can't just pull over in a boat when you're in deep water and something bad happens (e.g., weather, coral, etc.). Weather and water poses the biggest threats to safe sailing and if the GPS unit isn't focused on those, you're asking for trouble with Davy Jones and his shark friends.

I see you're from Maryland, so, I would guess most of your sailing is on the Chesapeake Bay (BTW, isn't the CB the most wonderful sailing you've ever done? And it has some of the best anchorages in the world). If your reason for purchasing the iQue is primarily for marine navigation, be careful, as suggested by the GARMIN'S response ("And keep in mind, it is not a hearty unit, with regard to weather and water. Be careful with it") in lostagain's post.

I've been using Garmin's Handheld units, upgrading to newer models as they were released, for almost a decade. You may want to consider a Garmin (you've seen their offerings on their website) dedicated to marine navigation since it appears the iQue will be severly limited for marine navigation purposes. This is based on my own discussions with Garmin. So, again, make certain you're getting what meets your needs. If the land navigation and palm functions is your stick, then the iQue sounds marvelous. If your stick is primarily marine navigation, most legitimate reveiws pick Gamin units over equivalent competitor units. And the GPS Map76S, which I've been using for a couple years now, does it all. Again, the downside is B&W and no expansion, so, you can't load a lot of charts. I've found myself reloading (due to lack of memory in the unit) charts as I've sailed from Annapolis to Key West, Fl., as an example. -- Fair Winds!--

Thanks for taking the time to post your extensive and detailed comments. They helped me a lot.

Having sailed only on long island sound and on the chesapeake, i have to say that everything you said about the CB is absolutely right. getting off to the eastern shore and anchoring up an otherwise unpopulated creek is one of lifes treats that everyone should have a chance to experience.

back on topic - based on all that you said, i think i will stick with my garmin gps 12xl for on the water stuff. i really was excited about the ability to look at a color chart and the memory on the sd card - but sounds as if the quality of the information on the ique 3600 charts won't be adequate. but it started me looking at the gray scale gps with navigation charts and the 76 or 76s look promising. going from the 12xl to the 76 would be the same in terms of black and white but i would have the chart - now if there was a memory card slot......

thanks again for your comments.

here's hoping for favorable winds in your future

[CaptMyCapt]

Bob - you're more than welcome!

I was fortunate to check out Mars via a telescope. Took it via dinghy to a little beach off the Rhodes River (15 miles south of Annapolis).

Actually, a jump from the 12xl to the 76s would be significant. I moved from the Garmin GPS 48 to the 76s and thought I was in GPS heaven. So many more features, more user friendly, larger screen, better graphics, and to your point, the charts. And, the price is dropping. Moreover, according to Garmin, although there are several 'hardwired' color units available, color for a handheld may be further off into the future. I don't know if I believe that. With technology the way it is, I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin did come out with a color handheld unit by next summer now that they've dropped the cell phone idea and are focusing on palm/GPS technology. BTW,

I too was very excited about the iQue for marine navigation, but I'm glad I did the research.

[lostagain]

I agree with what Capt is saying about the heartiness of the unit, however I think he's mischaracterizing the way the iQue will display navigational information.

Reread what Garmin said in reply to my question. All navigational aids will display (wrecks, buoys, lights, towers, etc), but finds will not be supported. Nor will tide predictions.

So while I wouldn't recommend the iQue as your primary chartplotter on a large boat, I think that the iQue makes sense as a backup GPS for marine use (providing it's stored in a rugged case).

Personally my intention is to use it as backup and when bareboat chartering.

[ebolean]

thanks for highlighting the "data will be in the device and be drawn" part of Garmin's response. i hope you will post your experience onboard with the ique.

in the mean time, i think i will see what other's experiences are - especially since even if i went out and ordered it today, it could be 2 to 4 weeks before i get it. i suspect that if i order it 2 to 4 weeks from now the lag time will be less and i will have more information.

i have not seen the blue charts displayed on a gps - are the constant depth lines shown? probably a silly question, since that can be one of the most important bits of info it could provide, aside from mark locations.

[CaptMyCapt]

Originally posted by lostagain
I agree with what Capt is saying about the heartiness of the unit, however I think he's mischaracterizing the way the iQue will display navigational information.

Personally my intention is to use it as backup and when bareboat chartering.
I apologize if I mischaraterized the way the iQue will display nav info. I don't have an iQue to validate same and I've found little or nothing on it in the two PDF manuals on Garmin's site.

Be that as it may, that was more of a sidebar to the real issue I was attempting to convey. Safety is the real issue on the water. For any captain, safety has to be a prime directive for the boat, large or small, and her crew. And marine navigation has to be scrutinized very carefully by the captain and/or the navigator. Garmin reps have made it clear in a response within Lostagain's quote (". . .And keep in mind, it is not a hearty unit, with regard to weather and water. Be careful with it."), and live conversations I've had with Garmin reps. It's been made very clear to me in those conversations that the iQue is designed for Palm apps and land navigation "geared to the businessperson."

Furthermore, my backup to marine navigation includes charts, the sextant & the stars, and common sense. If I were to use handheld marine electronics, even as additional backup, it would certainly be a unit desiged specifically for marine navigation. I understand there are a lot of folks who may sail/boat in familiar waters, so, I would certainly agree the iQue would be a marvelous 'addition' to marine navigation under that scenario.

Now, when it comes to bareboating, we're talking about someone else's boat. For the uninitiated, it's not (necessarily) a bunch of naked people sailing a boat together! "Bareboating" refers to chartering a yacht (generally 30' to 50') that you sail yourself, though you can also hire a captain to help you sail it.

I'd be happy to stand corrected on anything I've said here. And I can't wait to here from those sailors who have had the opportunity to shake down the iQue on the oceans, bays, and waterways of the world. I'd be happy to pass on my T|T and GPSMap76s for a unit that will do it all. Knowing Garmin, it is when, not if, they will develop a unit that is robust at Palm apps, land navigation, and marine navigation. They, obviously, are in the early stages of maturity in this regard. I tip my captain's hat to Garmin for breaking significant ground in this area.

[CaptMyCapt]

I just read a thread in which cohenc has shead a ray of hope for me and possibly others with special needs that the iQue itself may not provide at this time. cohenc reminded us, which makes sense to me, that third party apps are often used to accomodate specific needs. So, who knows? Maybe in the short term there will be 3 party apps we can load to an SD card to make the iQue more robust for use by the mariner, or any other special requirement (e.g., hiker, etc) for that matter. Here's cohenc's post:

http://www.pdastreet.com/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=22946

Afterall, I use Datebook5, which IMO, blows away the internal address book in my T|T. So, why not an enhanced app that fills gaps that may be inherent in the iQue's marine navigation functionality? I've read posts from some really smart people who really know the inner workings of palm software. I'd be interested in thoughts from these experts as to the feasibility of such add-ons to the iQue.

All this speaks for the value-add in reading all posts . . . so, cohenc, if you read this post, thanks for your insight!

[CaptMyCapt]

I just received a very direct, cautionany response from Garmin regarding how the iQue should (or should not) be used in addition to marine nav capability.
================================================== =
GARMIN'S RESPONSE
Thank you for contacting GARMIN International.

I would be happy to answer your questions. The iQue is first and foremost a PDA (Personal Digital Assistant). It certainly offers some gps functionality, however it is not a complete gps unit and will not offer all gps features.

If you use your Map76s as a receiver and have it connected to anything else that requires a NMEA protocol, the iQue will not work for you. This unit WILL NOT communicate in NMEA at all.

Your Map76s has a water resistant rating of IPX7. This means that it can withstand up to 1 meter of water for up to 30 minutes. The iQue has NO water proof rating of any kind. If it gets wet, it could be ruined.

The iQue is compatible with ALL of our MapSource mapping options, including BlueChart. The only requirement to be compatible with BlueChart is for the unit to have an internal ID number so that it can unlock the software. The iQue has this.

I hope this helps you. Let me know if you have any additional questions.

With Best Regards,
GARMIN International
Product Support Specialist
END GARMIN'S RESPONSE
================================================== =

I know, what is NEMA? The NMEA (National Marine Electronics Association) 0183 Standard for Interfacing Marine Electronics Devices is a voluntary industry standard, first released in March of 1983. It defines electrical signal requirements, and data transmission protocol. NMEA has become a standard protocol for interfacing navigational devices, e.g. GPS and DGPS receivers. It is based on the RS232 interface.

I trust this helps the sailors/boater in their decision-making.

[lostagain]

Yeah, it doesn't offer NMEA output (although it is certainly possible considering it can do serial out - but I don't expect Garmin to write the code for that and without an API nobody else is going to write it either). That does limit it somewhat. But all the luddite mariners I know never connect their handheld gps to anything.

Do you use the NMEA connections on your handheld GPS for anything besides backing up waypoints?

I know there's plenty to connect to, maybe I'm just running with the stone age crowd.

[CaptMyCapt]

Originally posted by lostagain
. . . But all the luddite mariners I know never connect their handheld gps to anything.
After our little exchange on this forum, maybe we can convince some of them to consider broadening their sailing experiences, and even helping me to convince Garmin to develop a color handheld for marine nav, with expansion, and marine voice guidance, and by the way, include a PDA - smile!

I posted my last response from Garmin to help in the decision-making process for all who may be considering the iQue as a marine nav unit based on what all mariners should be concerned with; safety, followed by form, function, and factor. And, I think Garmin did a marvelous job helping us understand how the iQue deals with marine nav in their response.

Be that as it may, I will certainly accomodate you by responding to your questions around NMEA devices, understanding few others may be concerned with this level of the marine navigation issue. The NMEA protocol (some pronounce this "nema" for short, since earlier versions are seldom found in use these days) is a very sophisticated standard, developed by the US in response to the consumer. Examples of other standards are the ISO 9000 and TL 9000 Standards. Bad things can happen (or good depending on your perspective) without standards in some areas of our lives. Look what happened with HDTV, and many other modern day electronic issues. Remember, we asked Palm to come up with a standard connector for their units? In any event, back to the nema protocol:

Do you use the NMEA connections on your handheld GPS for anything besides backing up waypoints?[/QUOTE]
I certainly do. I don't race anymore, so, I don't get caught up in the myriad of electronic devices geared to that sport. However, I use NMEA protocol between my Garmin GPSMap76s and my laptop (using it as an electronic chartplotter so that I can see my vessel on the actual chart), which is in turn connected to my autopilot, which will steer my boat to her destination around shallow waters and hazzards, or on long passages. Just think of the autopilot in an airplane, and you got it.
I know there's plenty to connect to, maybe I'm just running with the stone age crowd. [/QUOTE]
Yes, in fact there are more NMEA protocol devices for marine nav than there are PDA models for keeping our schedules organized. There are what you might call NMEA "Talkers" and "Listeners." "Talkers" are any devices that send data, in the form of sentences, to a "Listener" about once each second. Most marine navigation instruments (GPS, knotmeter, compass, etc) are talkers. Some devices, such as GPS's are also Listeners. A "Listener" is any device which receives data from another NMEA device. Other NMEA devices include depth sounders, speed sensors, temperature sensors, wind (speed & direction) dectors, etc. While there are several protocols for marine electronics, the US (NMEA) adopted a standard protocol that has evolved to what is known as version 0183 (NMEA0183).

I have friends who use NMEA devices on small runabouts when they go fishing. If you've been bareboating on anything over 32 feet or so, you may have already benefited from the NMEA protocol without even knowing it . . .