Garmin's healthy status

[vance2247]

Thought iQue3600 owners would be interested in this local business journal story about the health of Garmin. $500 in cash and no debt.

probably have to register to access the story

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2003/10/06/story5.html

[N2racin88]

More like $500 million! :p

[jonasolof]

Nokia has a 30 percent margin and >30 percent of the world market for cellular phones. But it is not engineer driven which Ericsson was supposed to be, explaining their diminishing market share and losses. Interesting to read that Garmin is engineerdriven and has that fantastic margin plus a flat organisation. Sounds so good. Too good?

Any company that markets a device with a mediocre but esthetically palatable antenna such as the ique is not entirely engineer-driven. There are a lot of marketing consultants in that too. Nokia pioneered the "antennaless" phones with integrated antennas. No youth would be seen with a phone with an antenna in Europe. Only old people like me appreciate that the engineers' say prevailed in phones like the T39. It will be interesting to see in a couple of years' time when the competion heats up in the field that iQue now rules alone. Will antenna requirements be second to looks and what is sleek and chic or will function count?

Jonas

[kefer]

What exactly is "mediocre" about the antenna?

I understand that external antennas may function better in certain conditions, but for the intended use, I have found the antenna to be more than sufficient. The only real problem is line of sight to the satellites you are using, and you can hardly expect them to address that in a hand-held device. I'm curious how you think it should have been different - I think Garmin's solution is particularly well engineered...and I'm an engineer!

[Mapper]

The flat patch-antenna Garmin is using for the iQue and the whole Etrex-family is of a poor quality. My Etrex-Vista for instance is totally useless in quit open woods. The reason they choose such an antenna is ralated to cosmetics and size.

The quadrifil antenna is much bulkier because it actually is a quad-helix coil. Its performance however is much better. The Magellan Meridian and Sportrak models have a quadrifil antenna and have no problems with foliage, they even receive sattellites inside my house!

[Error94]

It's not a simple matter of marketing vs. engineering where the iQue's antenna is involved. The form factor of the unit is driven by the fact that it is also a Palm device. People except (really demand) certain physical characteristics in a Palm device, one of the utmost demands being the smallest form factor that will get the job done. You could get something with a larger screen, more memory, and even longer running time -- but that would be a laptop with an external GPS antenna. I think Garmin did an excellent job of form vs. function and am frankly amazed at what they managed to squeeze into this handheld device.

The best engineers understand that when dealing with a commercial product there is by necessity a balance between form and function. As to whether Garmin could have used a better *quality* antenna in a similar form factor I am not qualified to comment.

[apersson850]

It could be that there are tolerances in manufacturing, or in the receiver tuning, that influences the performance of Garmin (and maybe others) units with patch antennas. Some people consider them nearly useless, some other find them quite adequate.

I've got only one GPS, so I can't compare, but a friend of mine tried his new iQue in an equivalent position as his old blue-tooth GPS transmitter (which was sending data to an Ipaq), inside the windshield of his truck.
The blue-tooth GPS, which also is small and flat, hence must house a patch antenna, was significantly better than the iQue, he said.
The iQue lost navigation several times, reporting only two sats visible, whilst the old one found seven satellites at the same time.

[kokopeli123]

Originally posted by Mapper
The flat patch-antenna Garmin is using for the iQue and the whole Etrex-family is of a poor quality. My Etrex-Vista for instance is totally useless in quit open woods. The reason they choose such an antenna is ralated to cosmetics and size.

The quadrifil antenna is much bulkier because it actually is a quad-helix coil. Its performance however is much better. The Magellan Meridian and Sportrak models have a quadrifil antenna and have no problems with foliage, they even receive sattellites inside my house!

Got to disagree on this one. I've had the iQue side-by-side with both models you cited - in the woods, airplanes, vehicles, and buildings on three different continents - and they performed about on par.

My complaint about the iQue antenna, and the reason it's sitting in a box right now going back for it's second RMA, is that it moves and that makes it more susceptible to breakage.

IMHO Garmin did a good job of blending form & function on the antenna package. I just wish I could get some data on how many mean-use-to-failure they got during their antenna testing.

kokopeli123

[Bobny]

I've owned 6 GPS's over the past 10 years, 2 with patch antennas and 4 with quadrifilar antennas. The quadrifilar antennas generally locked on faster (usually in 15 sec) and maintained lock under tree cover better. I would rate the iQue patch antenna behind all 6 of my past GPS's in time to acquire position. A time to acquire position on the iQue ranges from 30 seconds if it's already been on before in the day to 1 to 2 minutes if it's been off for a day or more. It can range to 5 minutes if it's been off for a week or more.

That said, I still find the iQue's antenna satisfactory in the car for navigation and in general use outdoors. I have not felt the need to purchase an external antenna for the iQue. I prefer the less bulk of an all-in-one solution with an antenna that's good enough for my uses.

[kefer]

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

The iQue (antenna and all) works great for what it is, and what it is is a Palm PDA with gps built in. Yes, there are lots of handhelds out there with better antennas, but thats pretty irrelevant. How many pda's do you think Garmin would sell with a 5" anntena sticking out of the top. It is undoubtedly a compromise, but a darn good one - the thing works, and it works well. As far as acquisition times, etc., it is faster than Garmin's Streetpilot III, which is pretty good if you ask me.

I was reading a car forum last night where somebody was asking about iQue experiences. I mentioned how great it is, and somebody else responded that it was worthless since it does not have a speedometer connection and compass (ala a built-in factory gps) for those times when you lose signal. So, coming from someone who is used to factory gps's, all portables are worthless...I guess its just your frame of reference.

[ducasse]

Good to know Garmin is financially healthy. I don't want to see them go out of business. They make great products.

[jonasolof]

I find that the antenna on my iQue does not work well at all and I find the unit more or less useless while walking in a city or under canopy.

Others are quite satisfied with theirs. I start to wonder if there is a great variation in performance between different units or different expectations/previous experiences with gps performance.

On the other hand, I'm quit satisfied with how the iQue works with an amplified external antenna and that's why I intend to try an small quadrifilar antenna add on for hiking. I also understand most people wouldn't bother.

One daring man opened up his iQue and had links to high resoltion pics. Those links do not function any more. From comments, I understood that the folding flap only contains the patch antenna and that all the gps circuitry is inside the body of the device.

A non patch antenna does not protrude more than the antennas of communicating Tungsten and Palm-Phone combinations.
Look at www.sarantel.com geohelix quadrifilar (stub) antennas that are made for GPS enabled cell phones and PDA's. The protruding part of the rubber cap covered stub is exactly 18 mm (3/4 inch) long and 10 mm in diameter, just measured on one. I think you'll see more of this solution in the future and then the fragile folding patch antenna variant will be gone. And you'll find it sleek.

As Anders mentioned above, a patch antenna can work very well as it does in the Emtac Bluetooth GPS. But the integration of the antenna to the GPS receiver is a complex question, prone to many compromises.

Jonas

[Mapper]

For me a gps must have a good functioning antenna, it is one of the most important parts of the gps. I don't use my gps in a car but as a hiker and it is very frustrating losing signal when some trees are nearby. My Vista is worthless when I make long walks in quite open forests! The only reason for me to buy the iQue would be the fact that it can display maps on a 480 x 320 px resolution in color. I am not interested at all in a Palm-pda or a pocket pc.
I will never again buy a gps that can do all sort of things but having poor gps-perception and inreplacable batteries! Are you all aware that your iQue-battery can only be charged some 400 times, within 6-12 months you will have to send it back to Garmin having it's battery replaced, it is ridiculous!

[jonasolof]

Hi Mapper,

All you say is true. But there is more to it. Assume that you can have a small amplified antenna attached to the iQue and supported by something that goes into the stylus slot. I'll know in a week if it works, I'm just waiting for the cable to connect he antenna to the iQue (70 mm long). The antenna I talk about weighs 14 grams including low voltage amplifier.

The receiver itself is excellent, so I have expectations that the result will be good.

Next thing: Directional sensitivity: Garmin has less positioning filtering than Magellan, which means that that your indicated speed and direction changes faster, i.e. it is easier to navigate close range with. geocachers don't like Sportrak.

That the screen is excellent we know + that you can use Fugawi and pathway.

Batteries: You need external batteries, yes. Or not use backlight, it works well anyhow but you have to shift the angle of the screen to see. The GPS continues to work when the folded antenna is out or an external antenna is connected, even if the screen has gone dark after the 1,2,3 minutes.

Flimsy connections: I would like to use a demounted car cradle which well done and very light weigt. Attach to that a battery box with Li-ion ackumulators and a switched circuit for 5 volts.

You might end up with the best mapping handheld available as long as it doesn't rain.

Jonas

[Mapper]

Hi Jonas,

With those extensions the iQue will be a superb gps but for me it is too bulky and not suited for all-weather hiking. The perfect hiking-gps is still to be made by Garmin but there is some light at the horizon:

http://www.starte.no/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=38&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=0f38e991fa63b93df50806bd40355623

If these models are becoming reality I am first in the row to buy one. They have almost everything I would like to have in a gps, the only minority is the lack of a SD-slot. But 30 hours on two AA cells is very impressive and they are replacable.

Marc

[Rockbeast]

Speaking of 'healthy', Garmin's stock is up $1 today, that's over 2% today...not bad, not bad...it's been doing well since early August.

[Rockbeast]

Speaking of healthy, Garmin's stock is up over 2% today!

EDIT: Sorry, for some reason my first post didn't take, so I posted again, and now I have 2!

[kokopeli123]

Interesting post by bearcreek from another thread:

Originally posted by bearcreek
Really, issues such as multipath, noise, etc. are not particularly relevant when discussing recreation grade GPS anyway. A Garmin GPS hooked to a amplified antenna is receiving amplified noise and amplified multipath signals. Even without the antenna, the rec grade receivers are set up to accept noisy data, data from sats low on the horizon, poor geometry, etc. That's what makes them work so well in difficult environments, and is probably a good thing. This is also why users should not seriously consider the GPS accuracy display to be particularly valid either. It is a stretch to think that this equipment is capable of really providing the accuracies that are often displayed. For instance, WAAS is a 7 meter system, but my IQue often displays accuracies less than 3 meters. We've actually tested the IQue side by side against our sub-meter $12,000 Trimble unit on a known reference point, then compared the amount of drift between the two units. As one might expect, the Garmin displays much more drift than the Trimble.

The IQue also appears to be somewhat more accurate with the built in antennae than with the stock Garmin external antennae even though it generally displays a greater accuracy with more sats using the external. I attribute this to the amplification of noise and the use of weaker signals. I've ordered a Gillson one and will repeat the test with it. Interesting stuff...

Having said all that, I am a great supporter of Garmin and their products. I think the IQue will really revolutionize the rec-grade market - really like the product. (Hope so - I've been a stockholder since they first went public) I just think users should not expect too much.


__________________
GB / Bear Creek Survey Svc
(A GPS mapping company)
http://www.bearcreeksurvey.com



kokopeli123

[CougerofEQ]

These newer antennas will be a nice option. As for the ique, i have put 4000 miles on mine. Half with an external antenna for $20 and half with the internal. It works great as the 43 locations I visited were all new to me. I loose signal in tunnels and thats about it.

I looked at some of the Hexi antennas and they just cost too much for my use. But the price will drop over time and you may see them on garmin products in the future.... who knows.

Regardless, my job would be 100x more stressful without my iQue.