Why is the NB Pro so overpriced??

[vitualis]

Just had a look at the Fujitsu P-1000 series...

http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1

For $59 dollars more, you can get the "long life" battery rather than standard --> which will give you probably around 7 hours working life.

From what I can tell, the only disadvantages this little baby has to the NB Pro is that it is necessarily not instant on and off (as it will run a desktop OS) and it won't be as rugged as it will have moving parts.

But the advantages! Standard PC components and compatibility alone is huge! Not to mention built in wired and wireless ethernet ports!

And it is still cheaper than the NB Pro... :mad:

Regards.

[Bennite]

I agree. The Fujitsu is clearly the better choice; after all, the ability to edit native MS Office files, coupled with the easy integration of a laptop makes the package far more attractive than a capricious PDA (these never being simple). Moreover, with Windows XP Pro the thing should come into and out of standby in about 10 seconds: the machine presumably being tweeked to use almost no battery power in standby.

[vitualis]

Well, if you use "hibernate" with WinXP, it will essentially be "off" -- most of your power loss will be from self-discharge.

However, coming back from hibernate isn't instant like on a H/PC (which literally comes back in under a second).

I've been looking to get a replacement for my Jornada 820 (Windows CE2.11 handheld PC) and was pretty keen on the NB Pro. However, I think I will probably get the Fujitsu P1120 instead...

Regards.

[Beakynet]

Originally posted by vitualis
Just had a look at the Fujitsu P-1000 series...

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But the advantages! Standard PC components and compatibility alone is huge! Not to mention built in wired and wireless ethernet ports!

And it is still cheaper than the NB Pro... :mad:

Regards.

Mad I know, but the netBook Pro is better! Weight, battery life the lot! Also it can work with native MSDocs as I am sure there are converters on offer somewher or an complete package that allows you to edit MS files.

If you were to hold the netBook Pro, you would agree - better screen, better build quality and more stylish!

A Mulbury leather case costs more then others, but we all know why - right?!

David

[vitualis]

Originally posted by Beakynet
Mad I know, but the netBook Pro is better! Weight, battery life the lot! Also it can work with native MSDocs as I am sure there are converters on offer somewher or an complete package that allows you to edit MS files.

If you were to hold the netBook Pro, you would agree - better screen, better build quality and more stylish!


Umm... have a look at the SPECS of the Fujitsu P1120.

It is LIGHTER than the NB Pro!

With the extended battery the battery life is the SAME as the NB Pro.

The screen is probably better than the NB Pro as well (well, is has a better resolution anyway).

The Fujitsu unit has a case made out of magnesium alloy so it is both very tough and light.

The keyboard on the NB Pro is probably better.

Since Fujitsu unit is a standard PC, it works with native MS Office documents (or any other than you want) with the native apps as well. The best word processor for the NB Pro is undoubtedly TextMaker 2002 for H/PC (which I own and use regularly on my J820) -- and it doesn't really compare with the desktop version of Word (probably somewhat similar to Word95/97).

From the research that I have done, the Fujitsu unit is pretty darn compelling if you were otherwise going to get the NB Pro.

As I stated before, the only good reasons I can see for using the NB Pro over the Fujitsu unit is if you need:
1. the instant-on/off function
2. the increase ruggedness of a moving parts free device
3. have Windows CE.Net specific apps

For the price of the NB Pro, you can get both the Fujitsu P1120 AND a decent PocketPC or Palm which covers PIM functions better than the NB Pro.

Regards.

[Bennite]

I don't know why the instant on/off is an issue. I can boot into my laptop (XP PRO) in 30 seconds (probably less with hibernate). Alternatively, I can come out of standby in 10 seconds!

[eriksandblom]

Bennite,

Instant on is important on a mobile device because you will be using it in short moments. For example, you may do some work while waiting for someone. When s/he arrives, you close the device immediately and say hello. You don't say "Oh there you are, wait while I save my files etc".

Or making an appointment with someone, you need instant access to your calendar, you don't wait 10 seconds to unhibernate and then 10 more to start the calendar app. You need it instantly in order to keep the conversation going.

[Jim Cooke]

Erik,

OTOH, if you use Outlook, it's a big help to be able to check your free time with a client and set up an appointment rather than set up an appointment and later find out that it was booked for another meeting you didn't know about because you're not connected to Outlook.

Using a miniature but full fledged PC has advantages that something like the Netbook Pro will never have. The Netbook Pro has advantages that a miniature PC will never have. The real question is what is your critical need for any machine - that should determine which one best fits your needs.

[ceya]

Guys like everything else. The price will come down, Just like the Fujitsu P , it will come down. The P model started about 1400.00 USD. It came down.

I like my Handheld computers they are a lot better to use on the road.
I am about to test out the new sony Picture biik Vaio model. Dvd and the rest but there is nothing like a handheld ie: Intermec 6651 or J720 to use on the road.

Semper Fi.
CEYA!

[Bennite]

I agree with Jim. Clearly any intended use I might have for a replacement to my S7 need not be instant power on - I use the S7 mainly for making notes, etc. on the rare occasion when I am not able to sit in front of a PC. All I really desire is something that can run MS Office! Though net access would be useful too. To be quite frank, I'm surprised to discover that many out there do in fact use their S7/NB machines for so much (particularly internet and networking). I can barely stand using my S7 for the limited uses to which I put it to now, I could hardly imagine putting up with it for opening web pages (limited use of on the move e-mail with an IR phone is different). Clearly I am not one of those converted to the Psion way! For me a machine is a machine, and I have no particular sentimental attachment towards my S7! Indeed, the S7 was really only innovotive so long as laptops were much bulkier and slower. I remember having one of the earlier Toshiba Libretto's and the only limiting factors were the speed of the machine and the poor battery life. Modern technology resolves these: the Fujitsu claims up to 10 hours of normal use, that's 4 hours more than I get out of my S7; moreover, the Fujitsu, whilst offering only 800 Mhz (vs. 120MMX in Libretto), presents sufficient CPU power to enjoy most normal uses. As regards both the Fujitsu and Netbook Pro, the fact of the matter probably is that, for a person like me, who would make only limited use of the extra features over my S7, it would be a waste of time expending such a ridiculous amount - when I could buy a nice Swiss watch, for example, instead! My point beng that I really can't understand why anyone would want one of these devices if they already have a Netbook.

[eriksandblom]

Jim,

I agree the Fujitsu is superior in many ways, and is the best choice for many people, maybe even me.

But saying the Psion is worse for making appointments because your calendar info is in Outlook means nothing -- I could just counter that, "well, my calendar info is in Psion Agenda so I can't use Outlook".

In case your calendar is on a company server, you would need to access the server to make an appointment, and this would apply to both Agenda and Outlook. You could synch Agenda with the server using SyncML.

Erik Sandblom

[Jim Cooke]

Originally posted by eriksandblom
Jim,

I agree the Fujitsu is superior in many ways, and is the best choice for many people, maybe even me.

But saying the Psion is worse for making appointments because your calendar info is in Outlook means nothing -- I could just counter that, "well, my calendar info is in Psion Agenda so I can't use Outlook".

In case your calendar is on a company server, you would need to access the server to make an appointment, and this would apply to both Agenda and Outlook. You could synch Agenda with the server using SyncML.

Erik Sandblom

Erik,

The location of the calendar is not irrelevant at all. I can tell you don't have to use Outlook in corporate environment on a day-to-day basis. If you did, you'd know that simply syncing to Outlook is not enough - it needs to be open live so you can see who just sent you a meeting invitation or cancellation the second it happens. To use your example, if the client is sitting there and you are hooked up to Outlook live, you can see that a meeting time he wanted has just now become free because of a cancellation. This isn't possible with doing occasional syncs to Outlook.

To have Outlook running live off an Exchange server you need a PC - period. If you're lucky enough to not be tied to a corporate scheduling system then a Netbook to keep you calendar seves just fine. For those of us stuck with using Outlook to plan what's happening constantly, it's hard to justify the price of a Netbook if we can buy a miniature PC with at least as good a battery life as the Netbook and to be able to access Outlook live, not to mention the other features of Office you're never going to have on a Netbook

[eriksandblom]

Jim,

Thanks for the note on Outlook. That sounds pretty neat that you can be automatically notified of cancellations. I didn't know that.

But, assuming we are talking about making appointments while away from the office, and with no connection to the office network, the netbook and Windows notebook are equally at a loss, correct?

With regard to cost, I have come to the conclusion that at my home/office, I like a nice big PC with a big keyboard and screen, and while away, I want something small. This is both optimal and cost-effective since desktop PCs are cheap.

I also value long battery life and ruggedness.

I really wish ruggedness, reliability and stability were higher on the list of priorities of more laptop consumers. It would mean a better future for our beloved netbook.

My Dad's $3000 Toshiba broke when he dropped it... Shouldn't a $3000 notebook be droppable? It sure should, if you ask me... I've dropped my netbook several times and it's working fine (except the infamous screen uncalibration).

[Jim Cooke]

Eric,

But that is the big difference. If you have a wired network connection, wi-fi, or GSM, you can always be connected to Outlook live if you're using a PC. There's no way to do this, either with a Netbook or Netbook Pro. The best you can have is Web Outlook, which isn't anywhere near real time and doesn't allow you to see and modify public folders, something that's used a lot in a corporate environment. There are also increasingly important tools like SharePoint that can only be accessed through a PC. If you're a "hotshot" in business nowadays (which I'm not, but I have to consult with some of these creatures), being out of touch for more than 10 minutes gives them chest pain. A netbook Pro would hold all the allure of a paving brick to them. :)

In terms of what should survive what kind of damage, that's rather like saying that a Rolls Royce should survive a crash from a bridge with a few scratches and a Volkswagen should be destroyed, based on price.

Pricing and durability in notebooks are only tangentialy related. That Toshiba may have cost $3000 because it had every bell and whistle of computerdom and ruggedness was a secondary consideration. For $3000, I can buy a ruggedized Toshiba notebook in a magnesium case that will survive five foor falls and can even be immersed in water. It also has an 800 mHz processor, a 12 inch screen, and a 15 mb hard drive. You have to buy a CD R/W as a $350 accessory. So, there are products for every market - one just has to know the market he wants to buy for and what he gets or loses when he makes the purchase.

[Bennite]

Splendid Jim. I note, firstly, that my Libretto took a few falls without any significant damage. Secondly, the moral of the story is not to make appointments at all, simply forward them to a secretary (maybe that's much more common here in London!) It goes something like this: "We must discuss this over lunch sometimes" "Sure, phone Michelle, my secretary". I rarely see anyone do their own appointments! Must be an English thing! That way someone is always centrally placed with a copy of your diary, and you can always be contacted by your secretary on your mobile phone when your plans have changed.

[eriksandblom]

Jim,

What kind of Toshiba is that? Do you have a link? I've never heard of them but you'd think they'd be the standard. A portable computer (or portable *anything*) will be banged around even if you're careful.

With regard to the Outlook thing and appointments, come to think of it, you don't really need a whole laptop, you don't even need a netbook, you just need a mobile phone with a calendar feature. Then you can have your office network send an SMS or WAP push message to the phone.

Which lets me relish repeating my original point, which is that I think PC notebooks are vastly overpowered and under-ruggedised for all but the most specialised purposes. By overpowered I mean in computing power, not battery power.

[Jim Cooke]

Eric,

Sorry, I had Toshiba on the brain.:) It's Panasonic and they make an extensive line of ruggedized laptops. You can find them at http://www.panasonic.com/computer/toughbook/home.asp .

Your idea of using an SMS phone to notify you of changes in Outlook is better than nothing but you're missing the essential features of Outlook. I need to know, for example, if a new meeting is being proposed, who is the one calling the meeting, what's the purpose, what's the agenda, am I required to be there or optiopnal, who else is coming, where is it at, and should I accept or decline. Your phone could tell you there's a new meeting and possibly a few other details but it doens't allow you to see all the other information I've described. It also doesn't allow you to do the most important thing - decline or accept the meeting invitation. If this is from your boss, this issue may be of paramount importance. Especially if he wants me to look at some documents on SharePoint and comment on them before I accept or decline.

So, sorry, but your example doesn't hold. You need the power of PC to do these type of things. You can buy a laptop that's a rugged as you need so that's really not an issue, only the cost. for many of today's road warriors, there's no substitute for a laptop. The times have changed when we could move on half-time. Everyone wants all the data now and you've got to be prepared to give it to them.

[Jim Cooke]

Indeed, this is an English thing. With the exception of a few top executives, no one has a secretary here any longer. We don't even have secretaries - the few that are left are called "administrative assistants". If I need to set up a meeting, I send out a request in Outlook and the attendees reply through Outlook. Setting up one's own appointments is not only normal here but not doing so would be a sign that you're a little behind the power curve when it comes to technology.

I can only imagine my boss's reaction if I said, "I need someone who sits around here all day with my schedule so she can spruce it up for me and plan meetings and just let me know what's happening on my cell phone. Oh, and perhaps get me a spot of tea now and then." :)

You know, we may have just discovered one of the reasons that the name "Palm" is well known and "Psion" isn't. Someone's secretary may have forgotten to set up the meeting to look at that new upstart on the block.;)

[Bennite]

I hope I don't offend when I say this, but I hope we don't lose the institution of secretary over here. Your way seems far more complicated. Furthemore I don't mean to perpetuate the frivolity, but, incidentally, we don't type our own letters or documents either. We simply speak into a dictation machine, and hand those to our secretaries! Clearly my needs are far less than others out here. I'll stick to my S7 for simple document viewing/editing.

[Jim Cooke]

No offense at all. I think a lot of us miss having secretaries since they did a lot more than just sit there and answer phone calls. In the days before spellcheckers, they were about the only way to get a presentable letter sent out. In many cases, the secretary knew as much or more about the business as the boss and could offer reasonable advice when the boss was about to do something stupid.:)

I'm not sure I agree that the way it's done now is more complicated though. It's much easier to dash off an e-mail to a colleague and get an answer back in five minutes than the days of dictating memos and not getting answers for days.

Regardless, the UK apparently still clings to some the old ways of doing business, and I don't mean old in a negative way. The things you describe have the advantage of freeing up an executive to actually think about business and leave some of the finer details to others. Here, we all do everything at once, as fast as possible, and hope that technology will save us. There's no going back and I suspect that things will eventually be the same in the UK. 'Tis a pity in many ways.

[eriksandblom]

If I was hired by a company that required me to answer meeting requests within five minutes no matter what, I would draw the conclusion that they didn't value my work. Especially if an answer required me to look at their documents. If they do value my work, they will let me get on with it and not bug me.

While being a keener on technology is a good thing, demanding that someone do something just because technology allows it is bad. Too much technology defeats the purpose.

As you know, one of the slogans that brought success to Palm was KISS - "keep it simple, stupid!"

Erik Sandblom

[Jim Cooke]

Eric,

No disagreement, mate, but, unfortunately, neither you nor I have much say in how business is run in the US. Answers in five minutes are the standard. You either learn to live with it if you want to move up in a corporation or you can flip burgers at McDonald's. Even worse, as soon as the other guy can get answers in five minutes, you'd better be able to do it in four.:)

[andyahern]

I rarely see anyone do their own appointments! Must be an English thing!

We don't see many secretaries here in the frozen north of England. Perhaps it is more of a London thing. Almost everyone I deal with uses Outlook to plan meetings, although thankfully we don't have the 5 minute rule. :)