netBook vs. netBook Pro

[stolkjo]

Update
Go check out more info on my site in the following areas:
http://www.johnstolk.com/Psion/index.htm

Software: http://www.johnstolk.com/Psion/sw.htm
Connectivity: http://www.johnstolk.com/Psion/conn.htm
Conclusions http://www.johnstolk.com/Psion/conc.htm

I do appologize for not being very happy about the Pro in general.
Multiple helpdesks have not given any solutions to the problem that I have encountered.

John

[cpulster]

Very interesting review, thanks a lot !
I have tested the Cisco WLAN Aironet 340 in the netbook PRO.
After enabling IP v6 and a reboot, it works fine.

ActiveSync is pain in the ass, you are right :-)

Christoph

[ceya]

Active Sync works well. I ahve been using it for years. I am a Psion user also even longer. It is better to download from the website of Microsoft.

I haven't got hold of a NetBook Pro yet to test out.

if you have any questions feel fre to email and I can send you some links that may make life better.


S/F,
CEYA!

[stolkjo]

I am not debating Active Sync that does seem to work well (I have used both an HP 320LX & HP 360 LX) The issue is on the Psion site where the Pro is only sending a handshake for 5 seconds. During these 5 seconds you need to have Active Sync scan the COM port you want to use. See more details on my site.

John

[vitualis]

Yuck... :-(

Well, I'm turned off from buying the NB Pro now...

I suppose Psion just isn't experienced in making Windows CE devices...

ActiveSync is actually really very good and works great with both my Jornada 820 and new iPAQ 1930. I can't for the life of me understand why Psion didn't make a USB sync port for the NB Pro...

Regards.

[stolkjo]

My guess is that the inmates are running the PT asylum. This Pro is going back to where it came from. I'm looking at this investment picture if I would
go the Pro route:

$1600 for the Pro
$ 59 for "office like suite" (that is still not able to run my analysis tool that does run converted on the netBook).
$ 300 for misc other tools & software.

So for aout $ 2000 I would have a machine that is still missing the about 50 % of the functionality that I currently have with the netBook. Other thing I found browsing around for software is that there is hardly any decent freeware or shareware software available for this Window$ machine.

John

[williamsdb]

I think you are missing the point - the Netbook Pro isn't aimed at the likes of you and I, it is aimed at the corporate user who is probably using rdp to access their back end applications.

In this scenario it is ideal, as it is lightweight, has a long battery, full sized keyboard, excellent screen etc etc.

This is exactly as Psion market it and so they should not be criticised for not meeting the demands of a merket it is not aimed at.

If you want a device to replace your netbook then you need to look for a consumer device.

N

[stolkjo]

I am sorry, if you have cheched out the rest of my site you would have the answer.
How am I missing the point trying to do an analysis on this machine for my company and sharing that here? I am trying to make up the balance and find direction for when I have to replace the netBook's, currently daily used in the field. The netBook is currently capable of running the whole program from the analysis interview and Financial Analysis and the sessions. Including printing invoices right there an then using a Canon BJC-85. At the same time having documents in Epoc format available on a sever accessable from location using VNC.
I just don't see this happening with the netBook Pro. For a $1000 I can buy a subnotebook with 1024 by 768 resolution, DVD and all the other stuff. If wanted replace Windoze with Linux. I would be better off already running Linux vs. CE.NET. For $ 600 I can buy a lot of battery.
What is the advantage for the Pro?

[stolkjo]

For instance:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=10357007&loc=

[williamsdb]

Quote from the psion site:

"Your mobile workforce needs a task-oriented computing device that is portable, yet powerful enough to run advanced mobile CRM applications. NETBOOK PRO combines the virtues of a larger laptop device, such as a large screen, full keyboard and multiple communications ports, with the virtues of smaller PDA-type devices, such as portability, instant on, long battery life and a touch screen. With the power to carry out work-related tasks anywhere NETBOOK PRO enables advanced mobile CRM applications across your enterprise workforce."

Unless your business is into mobile CRM then the unit is not being targeted to you.

[stolkjo]

by lack of a name: williamsdb,

I'm not trying to tick you off but, if you didn't went to my site, that explains it. Maybe you don't understand what we do, so let me explain :"the virtues of a larger laptop device, such as a large screen, full keyboard and multiple communications ports, with the virtues of smaller PDA-type devices, such as portability, instant on, long battery life and a touch screen. With the power to carry out work-related tasks anywhere". That is exactly why we are using the netBook right now. We do all our work at the clients site and therefore the netBook becomes the total mobile office. Because the netBook is moving out, I need to look for replacement. Based on what I have seen so far the netBook Pro is defenately not it! CRM or not! Issue closed.

John

[vitualis]

The NB Pro's definite weakness is its lack of Office applications -- and the fact is that you can't rely on third parties. The HPC software market is dead, and the existing apps, good as they are, are not up to professional level software (such as MS Office, or even something like OpenOffice).

Sure, you can use VNC or Windows Terminal Server to access a server, but the truth is, the NB Pro probably isn't too good for that either. If you look at the benchmarks I had a few people do of the device, they are quite weak --> after all, you are using a PocketPC CPU but having it churn out a 800x600 screen (as opposed to 240x320).

The NB Pro is designed for companies that are willing to compile their own software for the device, and where they have a mobile workforce.

This is where the subnotebook devices really give the NB Pro a kick in the rear end. Something like the Fujitsu P1120 is CHEAPER, is LIGHTER, FASTER, has much better connectivity, better screen, equivalent battery life, and not to mention can run Windows (or any other OS you want to install).

The only advantages that the NB Pro has over such a device is that it is instant on and has no moving parts.

In the context of subnotebooks like the Fujitsu Lifebook, the NB Pro seems woefully out of place.

Best regards,
Michael Tam

[donkeyontheedge]

I've noticed on Expansys recently the availability for pre-order of 6Gb CF cards. These are now getting to the level where it would be feasible to replace the hard disk of a sub notebook with a huge CF card and end up with a machine with no moving parts.

This would improve battery life and reduce weight.

I wonder what the speed difference would be?

John

[vitualis]

There are adapters for compactflash card to attach to an ide interface.

However, the difference in performance would be phenomenal... I would think that in the frequent read and write environment of any modern desktop OS, it would be unusable.

Best regards.

[stolkjo]

I will look it up but somewhere there is a guy who took an old 486 Armada subnotebook and stuck a CF card with IDE to CF converter in it. He installed DOS and is running either the EPOC emulator or EPOC on it. This might be the way to go.
Take a e.g. a Toshiba Libretto @ 200MhZ or 233 MhZ.

John

[vitualis]

It is on the Foxpop site.

It works for DOS as it doesn't require frequent read and writes like on the Windows OS.

Remember, the FASTEST CF cards (which don't include the ones with the highest capacity) is around the 10 MB/s range.

Even your ordinary HDD is mush faster than that.

Regards.

[martyscholes]

Remember, the FASTEST CF cards (which don't include the ones with the highest capacity) is around the 10 MB/s range.

Even your ordinary HDD is mush faster than that.

Maybe. While the burst speed of an IDE disk is much higher than 10mb/s, the true throughput is often much lower.

This is because small reads and writes require the drive to position itself for each transfer so drive latency becomes a huge portion of the throughput equation.

CF cards have basically zero latency. They would actually outperform a disk drive in many situations.

I was recently working with a high end Fibre Channel disk drive that would sustain some 50 MB/s in throughput. When we used it for Oracle redo logs (which make a zillion tiny writes), its throughput dropped below 1 MB/s, showing how disk seeks kill drive performance.

IDE drives are even worse when it comes to head and rotational latency.

For normal desktop use, one may find that a CF card may be faster than an actual hard disk.

[vitualis]

I'm sorry, but your experience is far from typical. Furthermore, CF cards have far from "zero" seek times.

Modern HDDs have burst transfer speeds up to 100 MB/s.

Anyone who owns CF cards and digital cameras can tell you that their HDD is much faster than a CF card.

Regards.

[martyscholes]

Originally posted by vitualis
I'm sorry, but your experience is far from typical. Furthermore, CF cards have far from "zero" seek times.

Modern HDDs have burst transfer speeds up to 100 MB/s.

Anyone who owns CF cards and digital cameras can tell you that their HDD is much faster than a CF card.

Regards.

Here goes the flame war...

The question was if it would be feasible to replace a laptop HDD with a CF card.

In short, 'Yes', and it might be faster.'

Modern disk drives may have burst tranfer speads of 100 M/s, which says basically nothing. Almost never would a notebook user care whether or not a disk drive, under perfect caching conditions, could transfer 1 GB in 10 seconds.

If he were ONLY saving large picture files (e.g. with a digital camera), then transfer speed makes a difference.

Typical drive usage patterns of a notebook office user involve lots of small I/O requests.

Copying a CD is different. Editing video is different. Converting songs to MP3 is different.

For typical office use, however, accesses are of small files.

Total I/O time is access time + transfer time.

Typical access times of a modern disk drive (not counting OS and controller overhead) are about 8.5 ms. If OS and controller overhead are zero (which they are not) and transfer times are zero (which they are not), then a typical modern ATA drive will produce AT MOST 117 I/O requests per second (iops).

If the typical request is for 10 KB, then the drive will produce AT MOST 1.7 MB/s throughput.

As the I/O requests get bigger, then transfer speed becomes more of a performance indicator than seek times.

In a digital camera, the file is saved basically as a single large transfer. In this case, transfer speed is all that matters and access times are basically irrelevant.

For typical office use of a computer, access time is generally more important than throughput.

CF cards can generally produce access times of less than 2 ms, which is MUCH faster than that of a disk drive. Well optimized implementations can get this number even lower.

</RANT>

[vitualis]

Typical drive usage patterns of a notebook office user involve lots of small I/O requests.

...

For typical office use, however, accesses are of small files.

Yes, but that is not everything.

Unless you have every program you need loaded in active memory, loading a "small file" will often also include loading up the often not-so-small application as well.

Most of your common Windows apps are significantly larger than 10 Kb... or even 1 Mb.

I don't disagree with your numbers, but I do disagree with your interpretation of them.

I do not agree to the simple argument that access time is "more important" than "transfer speed" for a desktop OS when there is such a large disparity in transfer speed.

If you plan to use something like Windows on your notebook, sure there may be many small I/O requests, but there are also many much larger request when loading up programs -- something that does happen rather often. I would imaging that your boot time would be rather longer as well... all of which adds to the perception of system speed and responsiveness.

Best regards,
Michael Tam

[martyscholes]

Originally posted by vitualis
Yes, but that is not everything.

Unless you have every program you need loaded in active memory, loading a "small file" will often also include loading up the often not-so-small application as well.

Most of your common Windows apps are significantly larger than 10 Kb... or even 1 Mb.

I don't disagree with your numbers, but I do disagree with your interpretation of them.

I do not agree to the simple argument that access time is "more important" than "transfer speed" for a desktop OS when there is such a large disparity in transfer speed.

If you plan to use something like Windows on your notebook, sure there may be many small I/O requests, but there are also many much larger request when loading up programs -- something that does happen rather often. I would imaging that your boot time would be rather longer as well... all of which adds to the perception of system speed and responsiveness.

Best regards,
Michael Tam

Ok, fair enough. It is probably time to let this offtopic thread die off.

It has been a few years since I charted the disk I/O of a wintel box. Last time I did, most accesses (once the system was up and stabilized, programs opened, etc.) consisted of loading this or that small office document, or editing this tiny e-mail, or making that small change to a calendar, etc.

Even the big files (credit to MS' horrible LRU block allocation strategy) were typically scattered all over the disk due to fragmentation. A single big file became broken up into numerous small requests all over the drive (16KB cluster sizes, IIRC).

Cheers,
Marty

[vitualis]

The occasional defrag is your friend... ;-)

A simple test would be to (e.g.) to install the MS Office suite to a CF card and to read and write documents or to use Outlook from it.

Regards.

[nclark]

Another potential problem is the limited write cycle life of CF. While this is in the 1000's and so probably not a limit for digital cameras and the like, it could become a serious problem for OS's like windows that write so frequently to the HD, especially when swapping.

[stolkjo]

This is it I just put up my last updates on the site and put up my conclusion.

http://www.johnstolk.com/Psion

[PlutoPants]

Thanks stolkjo for being brave and doing this test.
You have probably saved a lot of other members from wasting their time.
The problems and frustrations you had should not really have been so accute, had the NB Pro been properly beta tested in the field and consideration made as to the accepatbility of charging so much and lacking out of the box versatlity.
The new OS release certainly must address some of these issues but, as you have done, many users will probably have reverted back to older more trusted hardware.
Like you, I was a great Libretto fan, and was sad when Toshiba didn't release the new Libretto over here. It's only a matter of time before a fast, NB-sized fully-featured OS device will arrive. With Linux now bootable in small images from USB flash cards, we seem close to being able to avoid MS altogether.
My netbook (standard) is great, but it is just being overcome by more demanding Internet requirements.
MS's presence as a benchmark for software is venerable, yet un-necessary. Often a little common sense and sticking to older agreed standards such as HTML, JAVA CSV, vCard and RTF can mean all devices could be compatible and share info. Sadly though, compliance with this does not sell future versions of software as users would then be happy with what they already had.
Someone told me yesterday that their PC would need 128MB RAM to install AOL9. This type of demand is surely going to become standard.
My next best thing to my Netbook is my Apple 12' Powerbook - easily the best fully-featured laptop I have ever used and running sweetly on its standard 256MB RAM.
I am not sure if even there were a LoweBook Pro if I'd be tempted - lack of built-in creative software (just viewers as you say) is an oversight. What is the point of producing a device with a decent keyboard that has no software out of the box that really uses it?
The campaign for an EPOC-based Netbook Pro can only be strengthened by your review. You have been fair and comprehensive. I am sure your phone bill is astronomical after all your tech support calls.
I saw a Pro the other week and have to say my first impressions were how cheap it looked when closed - akin to the original iBooks that looked a bit like toy computers.
The price as well seems wrong, even for corporate buyers. The competition has moved on so much and I would say, with the connectivity problems you faced, a Powerbook would be a far more versatile bet.
As far as I can deduce, the best things about the Pro were the battery and being able to run Internet Explorer.
With WiFi, the orginal Netbook has overcome its lack of USB - although we still need an effective ethernet backup solution.
Having used Bluetooth, I have to say I wonder what the hype is about.
So, whilst we await LoweProBatteries - let's hope that the NBPro serves as a lesson to consider user's expectations and needs more.
Thanks again for the time and money you have spent testing and comparing - and for bothering to share your findings.:)

[stolkjo]

Thanks for your reply. I agree about the bluetooth part. Why call "latest" technology after a Danish King from the 9th century and he was the son of Gorm. Sounds more like a review of Lord of the Rings part 243.

[eriksandblom]

Hello PlutoPants and Stolk,

I share your disappointment with the new Netbook -- first it didn't run Epoc and now it doesn't even let you run standard things like spreadsheets.

But we have to remember that Psion Teklogix obviously intends the Netbook to be sold in large batches to companies willing and able to write their own software for it.

Plus, given what you can do with wireless internet and a good browser and server application, I think many companies would find the new Netbook quite efficient at getting info into the company net.

You can quite easily make the equivalent of a spreadsheet application using PHP. It's like OPL but for web servers. www.php.net

Erik Sandblom

[vitualis]

Given the current relationship between Symbian / Psion / Nokia, I would doubt very much that EPOC or a Symbian based OS will ever grace the NB Pro.

What would probably be more likely (and arguably equally useful) is to port Linux to the NB Pro. It shouldn't be particularly difficult since ARM based distributions of Linux already exist (e.g., for the iPAQ) and I believe I have seen a website where someone has ported and installed Linux on their Psion Netpad (which runs similar hardware to the NB Pro).

Best regards.

[boomerjp]

Missing the point....

williamsdb was on the money...the product is clearly aimed at users looking for business solutions not for a consumer device - if you want a subnotebook with DVD, Windows/Linux or whatever then buy one instead of breating a product aimed at different users for not having those 'features' - it does the job perfectly for my business and if you had actually tried to understand where Psion were pitching it you'd have likely talked to one of the software companies that they sell this product through - and would likely have found a 'solution' - sure we can all build our home grown 'hobby' solutions but who the hell runs their biz on 'freeware'!

Fact is I need a device that will support my field guys and if it breaks then Psion get it fixed - simple. It runs Citrix just fine over Wireless LAN and via Bluetooth for GPRS which is all I need.

[stolkjo]

Ok, everybody else is missing the point, but you are right on it? How can you justify this if you use GPRS and WiFi and that is all you need. If that is all you need that is great for you. I just find this a litle to much projection, that if you think it is ok that everybody else with different needs is missing the point. As I said before I use my netBook for my business and so my people. The new device is still useless for my (MY) business.
Now a little more in your line: Who the hell can justify spending this kind of money if you use two thngs on a machine whle there are cheaper solutions out there. Who the hell runs a business like that?

[vitualis]

Exactly.

The whole discussion about subnotebook devices is that they can do everything the NB Pro can except BETTER and they are CHEAPER and easier to support.

How exactly is the NB Pro good for GPRS and Wi-Fi anyway? This device doesn't even come with these interfaces built in... ridiculous considering the price point.

Something the the Zupera Smartbook (aka Coxion Webook) would be a much better proposition. It also runs Windows CE.NET but includes a built in GSM/GPRS modem AND costs HALF that of the NB Pro.

Best regards.

[stolkjo]

I also found the same device with the following names:

Book Digital Smartbook G138
Coxion Webbook
Zupera Smartbook 7c
Demolux dbook1

[stolkjo]

Really, the netBook “Pro”, this is getting to be really close to a situation I got involved with at the point that it was almost to late.

These three engineers started a software “company”. After a year these guys where still tweaking the product without any marketing process or clear definition of a target market. Never any thoughts on a target market or prospects just making a technological very good product. After a year they where still tweaking the product. All of them had pored in all their savings and emptied out their pension plans. Granted it was great, but the initial users interface so complex that you had to be a software engineer to even use it. Nobody wanted it. After I hired a marketing consultant as their interim CEO they ended up revamping the complete front end of the product to be able to sell it.

I am getting the same feeling with this “Pro”. An OS most of their very, very, very loyal user base does not want, using non-standard connectors like the 2,5 mm head phone connector, changing pin outs on the existing Honda connector, no microphone, viewers only, USB connector you can’t use for PC connectivity, cheap plastic cover, poorly designed CF slot ejector, limited amount of software available at point of introduction.

I am truly at a loss; did PT send a group of guys to an remote island? No contact with the rest of the world, and they where allowed back before they had a product? Who came up with this?

[PlutoPants]

I agree wholeheartedly with this view Stolkjo.

One big problem I see with the 'Pro' is that it is not endearing itself to those who would be interested in bringing it into their companies as a tool. You cannot just buy blind and expect the board to accept your purchasing decisions on promise alone.

There are just too many flaws for the price and even Psion diehards are having trouble accepting these.

I wonder if the Pro was half the price, whether it would sell either....??

At the moment its cost is prohibitive, especially when there are some very groovey and sleeker high-end tablet devices with added keyboards available for far less, and far more flexible (and universal) software abilities.

I advise small businesses on IT, and, I couldn't even contemplate even mentioning a NBPro and not being laughed at. Psion used to have respect because of a core of staisfied consumer and business users. In its current incarnation, the NBPro seems more obscure than ever the Netbook itself ever did.

We're now a while down the line of production and it would be interesting to see sales figures for the Pro and if any targets have actually been reached.

Another shame is the deflation of the software community that once thrived under EPOC. So much reasonably priced software which was genuinely useful and could have been developed further has now been abandoned.

The out-of-the box functionality not seemingly part of PT's priority brief, one cannot help but feel that things could have been so different.

My final point is that having a public version of a device helps to promote respect and popularity of an industrial device. The NBPro form factor is standard: keyboard & screen - so, presumably should be useful to people who need to type a lot - but not just programmers. Data collection, scanning etc can be handled by keyboardless devices.

Psion got it right with the Series7 - that was arguably just about priced OK (compared to its more advanced sibling) but had a lot of the basic ability. Look how many enthusiasts now have 'upgraded' in some way to Netbooks (albeit sometimes in non-official ways). Driving forces for this have been memory, WiFi, GPRS and, ultimately kudos.

Not having a current consumer version, in my view, has not allowed any aspiration in this way. Even if you have the luxury of choosing how you spend your £1,000 IT budget, your funding manager is going to ignore the NBPro through ignorance of what it does or could do - unlike anything laptop-based, which at least s/he can relate to whichever computer they have experience of. The paradox is that WinCE.net's look is designed to appeal to those familiar with PCs. Adding Media capabilities and a familiar interface to please the masses is not enough.

Well, only time will tell if PT's strategy was right.
[/rant]

BTW the German link above is very interesting, even for non-speakers. The pictures of both NB and NBPro side by side and of historical gene line (Apple Newton) are very interesting.:(

I wonder how 'cheap' the NBPro will have to become to be successful (or maybe I am wrong and it is selling to target). OS fixes are evidently needed as well (but that's perhaps more normal and expected).
How long before the 'general' Psion community are able to afford a NBPro and then perhaps boost its cult status (if there is any)? What we need is a huge cancelled order to be resold. mBookPro anyone? ;)

[stolkjo]

I could not agree more also on the software part. Companies like Opera and TomTom just dropped us like there is no tomorrow. Maybe there isn’t in there eyes, hey of you can sell some route planner software (with almost the same functionality) to a Window$ user for a $165 instead of $50 to an Epoc user. As a business owner, I would do it. But surely would not have dropped an existing user base.

By the way maybe I need to make a visit to get my eyes checked but I am missing the German link you where talking about. Being Dutch I could start making jokes about missing German links but I won’t.

John

[PlutoPants]

- By the way maybe I need to make a visit to get my eyes checked but I am missing the German link you where talking about -

Sorry, I need my head testing. I could have sworn I had been looking at an excellent review (in German) on the Psionwelt site that someone had linked to from this thread.... and that was one of the reasons I had posted some words of 'wisdom' (or otherwise).
I'm still getting over the truth about my original Avatar!

Sorry for the mis-information...perhaps someone else has a clue what I'm on about because I don't!

G:rolleyes: ;)

[Mobilix]

Hi Folks!


The link was posted in the petition thread by Gianluca!

The long and excellent review is written by Thorsten Stegemann, who got the chance to test the nBpro for one week from Warok.de, like all other interested readers of PsionWelt!

Here it is:
http://www.psionwelt.de/besprech/nbpro-test_ts.pdf


Ciao
Thomas
Editor Psionwelt.net

[dave99]

...got to agree with stolkjo

The machine is just too expensive not to deliver enough solutions "out of the box". Having tried nearly every PDA OS out there, I have to say it's shock what most new products don't do, with Microsoft being the worst offender in by book. There's no doubting CE.net/Pocket PC’s potential power, but you need very deep pockets to get the best out any hardware device using the said OS. Is it worth it? Our “Corporate standard” for PDA’s is Pocket PC’s, fully equipped bluetooth/wi-fi for £400. Very nice…..Most of my colleagues use them as a glorified post-it notes or paper weights, and just cope with the limitations of the standard application set…until Active Sync starts playing up…then the moaning starts!

Not for me….I can buy a Netbook size Laptop for £399 with 3 months guarantee....

Or a "real" Netbook with real software (infinitely better!!!!)

[MartinMaxwell]

I am getting the same feeling with this “Pro”. An OS most of their very, very, very loyal user base does not want, using non-standard connectors like the 2,5 mm head phone connector, changing pin outs on the existing Honda connector, no microphone, viewers only, USB connector you can’t use for PC connectivity, cheap plastic cover, poorly designed CF slot ejector, limited amount of software available at point of introduction.

All this while my assumption has been that the nB Pro is OK hardware wise; but what many people have wanted is a Symbian OS version. Listing all these issues after each other smashes this assumption to smithereens.

[MartinMaxwell]

There are just too many flaws for the price and even Psion diehards are having trouble accepting these.

I think that has more to do with the choice of OS than the price.

I wonder if the Pro was half the price, whether it would sell either....??

I do not think it would, at least not dramatically. Instead, if they redesigned the hardware according to Stolkjo's list, put Symbian OS v7 + derivative of Series 90 on it and increased the price somewhat, I think it would sell more.

At the moment its cost is prohibitive, especially when there are some very groovey and sleeker high-end tablet devices with added keyboards available for far less, and far more flexible (and universal) software abilities.

For those that wish to stay with Symbian, a Series 80 or 90 phone with add-on Bluetooth keyboard is a strong alternative.

Psion used to have respect because of a core of staisfied consumer and business users. In its current incarnation, the NBPro seems more obscure than ever the Netbook itself ever did.

Hmm, how true! But if the netBook (classic) was ever obscure, it is certainly not so now. It is amazing how its most effective promotion happened several years after it went out of production.

Another shame is the deflation of the software community that once thrived under EPOC. So much reasonably priced software which was genuinely useful and could have been developed further has now been abandoned.

Most of these software houses and developers are still around, but have moved on to later versions of EPOC. I think it is more a matter of the OS to catch up with the developers.

I wonder how 'cheap' the NBPro will have to become to be successful (or maybe I am wrong and it is selling to target). OS fixes are evidently needed as well (but that's perhaps more normal and expected).

I do not think this is a matter of price alone. You can defend a high price with a good and differentiated product. Symbian OS/EPOC is one key differentiator against sub-notebooks. More than just replacing one OS with another, introduction of Symbian OS shifts the focus from computing to communication. PT has not understood this simple idea. With Symbian OS the netBook Pro could, with the right hardware, be positioned as a high-end Communicator for mobile professionals.

cheers
Martin

[PlutoPants]

I do not think this is a matter of price alone. You can defend a high price with a good and differentiated product. Symbian OS/EPOC is one key differentiator against sub-notebooks.

Ah yes Martin, I agree with you on this. I paid £499 for my first Series5 and don't regret a penny of it, even though the price probably halved during its lifespan. So many consummer devices now are designed to simply be replaced rather than endured and upgraded.

I can testify that making the right choice of hardware at a higher price is probably more cost-effective than making the wrong choice at a lower price.
Cost of Ownership is a key factor, and it seems that CoO of the NBPro would be quite high, compared with other devices available.

Here's a phrase I use, the acronym at least makes clients smile a little and it encapsulates my humourous: What You Get That You Would Use (WYGTYWU) - is all that matters in the fickle marketplace where so many fall for add-ons and gimmicks that never justify even their bargain price.

The WYGTYWU factor of my Psions has always been high. Other things in their time have approached a high WYGTYWU factor for me are:
- Toshiba Satellite 210CS
- Apple PowerBook 12"
- My motorbike
- PsionPlace Forum
- My wife!

I won't bother listing my low factor WYGTYWU procurements as:
1) I'll embarass myself
2) I'll depress myself
3) If my wife ever reads it she'll have enough evidence for the decree nisi!

George

:)

[MartinMaxwell]

What You Get That You Would Use (WYGTYWU)
- Toshiba Satellite 210CS
- Apple PowerBook 12"
- My motorbike
- PsionPlace Forum
- My wife!

Interesting to see that applied to your wife! And she doesn't feel *used*?...:-)

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by MartinMaxwell
Interesting to see that applied to your wife!And she's at the bottom of the list too! If she ever visits this forum I would wager a "decree nisi" would be the least of PlutoPants' problems... :D

[PlutoPants]

I can assure you that my better half would NEVER look at this forum. She thinks, quite rightly I guess, that I am deranged and odd for doing so anyway.
What can I say about me putting her fifth in the list?... er...uhm...Saved the best till last???
;-)
I cannot say though that the phrase "You think more about your Psion than you think about me!" is entirely alien to our house. Ever since WiFi. ADSL capabilities came to the Netbook, well, what can I say, the bedroom has been a different place!
;-)

All OT, but, in a way, relevant to the psyche of at least one Psion Forum member.
George

[Snappy]

ok, this thread is somewhat dormant ... but tot I'll chip in my thinking on CF as replacement for HDD.

For most newer OS (98 and beyond), harddisk swapping is a fact of life. remember that CFs have a limited lifespan of reads and writes, so your CF may one day just stop writing without generating errors with all the swapping that occurs.

Granted, even HDD and RAM has a limited lifespan, the CF's read/write lifespan pales in comparison when used in the same environment.

[psimon]

Originally posted by vitualis

Sure, you can use VNC or Windows Terminal Server to access a server, but the truth is, the NB Pro probably isn't too good for that either. If you look at the benchmarks I had a few people do of the device, they are quite weak --> after all, you are using a PocketPC CPU but having it churn out a 800x600 screen (as opposed to 240x320).

it is nonsense, sorry.
TS doesn't use too much CPU power, and works great even on a strongarm 206 Mhz old HPC, so i won't be buying this nonsense. :)

[Ed_Ca22]

By TS do you mean touchscreen? I dont think he was referring to this, more to the fact that the LCD is displaying at 800x600 pixels, not 240x320. This means there will be much more memory taken up for holding the screen data - I think the screen is 64K colours, which means there are 16 bits used to store the screen data. So;

240x320x16=1228800b=0.15MB

800x600x16=0.94MB (more than 6 times as much)

This means there will be more overhead on the CPU for running the screen. I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make exactly, or if it will make any noticable difference at all, but it definently will increase CPU strain to some extent.

[Mobilix]

TS - touch screen or terminal server ;-)

ciao
mobilix

[psimon]

Originally posted by Ed_Ca22
By TS do you mean touchscreen? I dont think he was referring to this, more to the fact that the LCD is displaying at 800x600 pixels, not 240x320. This means there will be much more memory taken up for holding the screen data - I think the screen is 64K colours, which means there are 16 bits used to store the screen data. So;

240x320x16=1228800b=0.15MB

800x600x16=0.94MB (more than 6 times as much)

This means there will be more overhead on the CPU for running the screen. I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make exactly, or if it will make any noticable difference at all, but it definently will increase CPU strain to some extent.

no i wasn't referring to touchscreen but terminal server. :)
terminal server doesn't eat much cpu power... so the weaker results compared to a pocketpc must be only because of a low speed network (as rdp/ts has to transfer more data over it). if for example, you have a high speed lan there won't be any problem.

btw, surely it isn't too much problem to have a bigger screen if you have a good video chip or something to support it. the original poster who i was replying to forgot about this possibility too. so the netbook pro isn't just a pocketpc with 800x600 res!

[Ed_Ca22]

The netbook pro has no graphics chip - the processor manages the framebuffer itself as with many embedded processors these days (it is system on chip -SoC) including all or very nearly all pocket PCs.

I couldnt say how fast terminal server is - having never used any kind of ce/pocket pc etc except for 5 mins when i first got my ipaq and was burning linux to it! The pro could well handle it easily - I guess the easiest way is to check!

[psimon]

Originally posted by Ed_Ca22
The netbook pro has no graphics chip - the processor manages the framebuffer itself as with many embedded processors these days (it is system on chip -SoC) including all or very nearly all pocket PCs.

I couldnt say how fast terminal server is - having never used any kind of ce/pocket pc etc except for 5 mins when i first got my ipaq and was burning linux to it! The pro could well handle it easily - I guess the easiest way is to check!

why are you so sure it doesn't have a graphics chip? i don't know the exact specs now but just try to mention other hpcs... for example the jornada 720, sigmarion III, simpad SL4 and a lot more... all have dedicated graphics chips. a lot of ppc's of today have graphics chips as well.. if you want to know more i can find the specs for the netbook pro...

terminal server (or rdp on ce.net) must be fast, you don't need to even try it to be sure :)

[Ed_Ca22]

I can find no evidence to suggest that the psion does have a dedicated graphics chip of any kind other than the cpu, which quite definently has graphics hardware and an LCD driver on board. I dont see why psion would bother with a graphics chip on a machine which is not intended to have to do anything impressive graphically. I'd be happy to accept otherwise if thats the case - the more powerful the psion is the better!

But I doubt that any of this will have any affect on displaying a remote session - im sure that it would play videos so I dont see why it couldnt do that - if anything it would be the network slowing it down.

[psimon]

Originally posted by Ed_Ca22
I can find no evidence to suggest that the psion does have a dedicated graphics chip of any kind other than the cpu, which quite definently has graphics hardware and an LCD driver on board. I dont see why psion would bother with a graphics chip on a machine which is not intended to have to do anything impressive graphically. I'd be happy to accept otherwise if thats the case - the more powerful the psion is the better!

But I doubt that any of this will have any affect on displaying a remote session - im sure that it would play videos so I dont see why it couldnt do that - if anything it would be the network slowing it down.

we agree on rdp :)

why a dedicated graphics chip? i don't know if the xscale pxa255 can handle that big res easily, so that could well be a reason for that. i'll try to find information on this! :) so many hpcs have it... why not the netbook pro? :)

[Nemo20000]

The problem with many of these SOCs is that though they CAN drive a big LCD, and IrDA, and Bluetooth, and WiFi, they can't always do all of them simultaneously. Driving a large LCD reliably seems to be an unusual requirement, though whether you classify 800x600 as large is a moot point.

[psimon]

The problem with many of these SOCs is that though they CAN drive a big LCD, and IrDA, and Bluetooth, and WiFi, they can't always do all of them simultaneously. Driving a large LCD reliably seems to be an unusual requirement, though whether you classify 800x600 as large is a moot point.

you're wrong in this. or the netbook pro has a nice video chip! :D

i have just tried two netbook pro's recently (two of my friends have them... how lucky). they're amazingly fast. especially when browsing on the net over WLAN.

so.....

[stolkjo]

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, does not mean I am wrong in mine. Happy rebooting your Pro!

[psimon]

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, does not mean I am wrong in mine. Happy rebooting your Pro!

well my message wasn't meant for you, sorry for any confusion i might have caused.

anyway, in reply to your post.. i do not own a netbook pro but i do own other ce.net devices and i must say this operating system is quite stable, don't worry about me :D so i'm not sure why you wrote this.