Betty's Replacement

[Rich36]

Does anyone here have any knowledge of what's being discussed on this forum? Are they thinking that R4 is a new PDA/GPS?

http://www.**********.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6590

[donc13]

Originally posted by Rich36
Does anyone here have any knowledge of what's being discussed on this forum? Are they thinking that R4 is a new PDA/GPS?

http://www.**********.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6590

There's always newer, bigger, better, faster "on the horizon" for just about any electronic product. That's the way the industry is. I think what you see there (and here) is simply speculation vs. informed speculation (which would be someone who knows what Garmin's plans are).

If you're happy with what the 3600 does...buy it. If not, then wait for the next model (whatever that may be) to come out and see if it meets your needs.

Remember "need" vs. "want"....Ask yourself if you need a GPS/PDA that will do: 'a', 'b' and 'c' but want a GPS/PDA that will do 'a','b','c' and 'd' (what ever that may be).

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by Rich36
Does anyone here have any knowledge of what's being discussed on this forum? Are they thinking that R4 is a new PDA/GPS?

http://www.**********.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6590

A while back there was some speculation about the new iQue and R4. It seemed then (Anders may know better, he being our man at Garmin, so to speak) that R4 software was possibly due for development September/October onwards, depending on whether Garmin have the resources to do it, and possibly the will to do it as well. I think we were looking at something year end maybe, in time for Christmas?

Don't hold your breath though, this intrepid reporter from Radio Bokkie has been to known get it wrong on quite a few occasions!:D

[JMckie]

I suspect there would be a gag order on any R4 news. Since the 3200 was just released, Garmin would not want to risk losing any sales to people who decide to wait for R4.

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by JMckie
I suspect there would be a gag order on any R4 news. Since the 3200 was just released, Garmin would not want to risk losing any sales to people who decide to wait for R4.

Joseph,

following the link I read this interesting comment by the editor-in-chief "As for the 3200 v 3600, I really so [sic] no reason to buy the 3200 at this point."

I think that pretty well sums up what many of us are thinking as well. I'll stick with the guess that we'll see R4 before any new device, and if any new device comes sooner, it surely must have greater capability than R3 has now. Either way we still win. The only question is whether we get R4 software for free, or R4 on a new device we have no option but to buy?

[apersson850]

Although I do know a few things I don't want to reveal right now, I think I can tell you this:

They haven't started on R4 as of yet, with the exception of the patch we've seen, and a few ideas that may become a patch, prior to R4.
I'm almost certain that they will release the R4, for the 3600, in the usual manner. That is, free for those who own such an iQue. If nothing else, they simply have to teach the iQue how to set the time properly.

Why is R4 a threat to the sale of the 3200? What says that there can't be a R2, with similar improvements, to the 3200?

That they are considering an upgrade to the 3600 as well, not just a downgrade, like the 3200, I can understand from clever guesswork. It simply must be discussed in Olathe. They have only two options: Release a more powerful model, or let the Garmin line of PDA/GPS units die peacefully.
If it ever comes, we'll all find out what it looks like, right?

[JMckie]

Originally posted by apersson850

Why is R4 a threat to the sale of the 3200? What says that there can't be a R2, with similar improvements, to the 3200?



Something like this, Anders. Suppose I am in the market for a PDA/GPS. Because it is cheaper and I want really want SDIO, I decide on the 3200. But then I find out that R4 is being released soon. I may decide to just to wait for a little bit because it might swing the decision towards the 3600. (The mysterious R4 may even support SDIO.)

Anything that causes a buyer to wait and see is bad for Garmin because they might lose the customer to a competitor.

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by apersson850
...or let the Garmin line of PDA/GPS units die peacefully.
If it ever comes, we'll all find out what it looks like, right?

If they kill-off the iQue, will Garmin provide a commerative wooden box (coffin shaped) that we can use to entomb our iQue's?

Then we can have a collective funeral pyre and scatter the ashes on the Olathe car park. Perhaps the pheonix will rise again and come back as a Magellan? Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

[donc13]

Originally posted by Bokkie
If they kill-off the iQue, will Garmin provide a commerative wooden box (coffin shaped) that we can use to entomb our iQue's?

Then we can have a collective funeral pyre and scatter the ashes on the Olathe car park. Perhaps the pheonix will rise again and come back as a Magellan? Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

Geeze Bokkie, that's a jump....From Anders speculating they have 2 choices to you saying "If they kill..." as if that's a realistic option and not just Anders rambling.

Truth is, they have tons more options than 2, and I strongly suspect that "better, faster, cheaper" is a whole lot closer to the top than, "Boy were we dumb building a palm device."

;-)

Don

[apersson850]

As far as I've heard, the 3600 would have had SDIO, if it had been possible, from a hardware point of view. But it seems it's not. So there is no way they can program it to become SDIO capable.

So that leaves you with the ability to right now decide on buying whichever unit you like, and then upgrade it with Rx, when it becomes available. I can't see anything than that this can only encourage you to buy now, use the unit for what it can do in the meantime, and then make it even better when the next upgrade appears. That's the whole idea of making free upgrades, apart from making the users fix errors done during development.

I'm sure it works, too.

[JMckie]

Originally posted by donc13


Truth is, they have tons more options than 2, and I strongly suspect that "better, faster, cheaper" is a whole lot closer to the top than, "Boy were we dumb building a palm device."


Few people saw it coming when Sony decided to kill off their popular PDA line.

[apersson850]

No, Don, they have only two options.
Improve or let it die.
Note that I'm referring to the PDA/GPS niche only now.

Introducing more downgraded versions will not keep a sustained sale of PDA/GPS units. So either they keep what they have now, and cancel production when development by other manufacturers make it a bad business to keep on with the iQue series, or they strive to improve the range of models for the future. Releasing new versions of the firmware, with more and better functionality, is the cheapest way to achive this goal, but it will only go so far. After that, they need a better hardware platform.

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by apersson850
After that, they need a better hardware platform.

Time to talk about the iPaq hx4700 and cfQue?

That should stir the hornet's nest.

:D

[donc13]

Originally posted by apersson850
No, Don, they have only two options.
Improve or let it die.
Note that I'm referring to the PDA/GPS niche only now.

Introducing more downgraded versions will not keep a sustained sale of PDA/GPS units. So either they keep what they have now, and cancel production when development by other manufacturers make it a bad business to keep on with the iQue series, or they strive to improve the range of models for the future. Releasing new versions of the firmware, with more and better functionality, is the cheapest way to achive this goal, but it will only go so far. After that, they need a better hardware platform.

I fully agree that Garmin can't be stagnant, but I can see a newer version of the 3200 with a bit more flexability as one option, and yes...a better version of the 3600 as a 2nd option.

I never expected the 3600 to be the first and last entry in this market, but I can certainly see lots of options in the "improve" category.

Someone else in this thread mentioned that not many saw Sony dropping out of the market...if that's so, then those who failed to see Sony dropping out, also failed to look at market shares and price points.

Anyone who did a comparison of: "look at what I can get from Sony for $XXX and look at what I can get from Garmin for $XXX and also from Palm for $XXX" and (to me) it was clear that the Sony would lose just about every time.

When I was looking for a replacement for my Palm Vx, I was comparing Sony's and Palm units. I even looked at a few Pocket PC units, I had pretty much crossed Sony off the list and decided between the Palm T3 or Tungsten C when I "discovered" the iQue. I ended up comparing the T3 and the iQue and while there was a large difference in price ($400 vs $600) the value in the iQue (for me...your mileage may vary) was worth it. Yet the difference in the price for any of the Sony's vs the equivalent Palm simply was 'pay more because it has "Sony" written on it'

While I certainly can't say I predicted Sony would drop out, I wasn't the least bit surprised when they did.

Back to Garmin...according to all reports, the iQue is selling better than they expected it to. That means there will be bigger, better and faster available. Also, For What It's Worth....I've seen more and more advertisements for the iQue lately (in newspaper fliers for places like Office Max, Office Depot, CompUSA, etc.).

Don't know about Sweden, but around here...it seems to be well accepted by those that want such a device.

Don

[JMckie]

Originally posted by donc13

Someone else in this thread mentioned that not many saw Sony dropping out of the market...if that's so, then those who failed to see Sony dropping out, also failed to look at market shares and price points.

Anyone who did a comparison of: "look at what I can get from Sony for $XXX and look at what I can get from Garmin for $XXX and also from Palm for $XXX" and (to me) it was clear that the Sony would lose just about every time.



That someone was me and you've got to be kidding.

Gartner report from a year ago:
http://www4.gartner.com/5_about/press_releases/pr29apr2003a.jsp

Sony had the second largest market share next to Palm in Palm devices in the US and worldwide. Palm had worse than 20% decline while Sony had a growth rate of over 50%. I trust that the free market will correctly determine "price points".

It is well understood that the bulk of Palm market share is the low end, little better than an organizer, graduation gift Zires.

Garmin is such a niche player in this market that it always falls under the 'Other' category.

[rkevwill]

ya know....one thing we can count on with our computer/electronic toys, is that they will upgrade them continuously. There will be new competitor's products, and improvements to the ones we have. Since I always try to stay with, if not ahead of the curve, will probably sell my Ique (or give it to my son) when a newer model comes out, that is a real improvement. Thats what I did with my previous Garmin Street Pilot, and bought the Ique.

And here I still don't have an Ipod. Gotta get me one of those one of these days. And lets see, I need a new laptop (a mac of course), and I need............this could go on all day LOL

[rocket666]

Originally posted by rkevwill
sell my Ique (or give it to my son) when a newer model comes out,

Hey, ain't that why we have kids, to hand down the toys:D

[JMckie]

I want a newer and better iQue to come out, not because I'll necessarily buy it, but just to be able to say:

"The Que is dead. Long live the Que!"

[apersson850]

Don (mostly), what I meant by stating that there are only two options, was from a strategic point of view. Continue or let it die.

Then there are of course, as you put it, tons of choices regarding how to continue, if they choose to do that. The fact that sales of iQues seems to exceed their expectations is of course a good encouragement for a decision to continue.

If we assume Garmin does continue with PDA/GPS models, then they have to make a more capable unit. The specification for such a unit has been discussed here before, so there's really no need to go into that again. But it's of course clear that better performance, in the widest understanding (speed, memory, battery, antenna, software, whatever), has to be included in this unit. Meanwhile, upgrading the software of the existing units is a comparatively cheap way to keep the interest, and thus sales figures, up for these units.

[JMckie]

Originally posted by apersson850
Meanwhile, upgrading the software of the existing units is a comparatively cheap way to keep the interest, and thus sales figures, up for these units.

Anders, I'm struggling to understand how software updates and help sales figures.

it is my impression that only existing owners really care about the software updates. As a prospective buyer doing research, I do sometimes take note that software updates exist, because it conveys a certain maturity to the product. But it rarely factors into the buying decision. Few non-owners would really care the list of updated features if they didn't know all about the features that were there in the first place.

One might argue that a software release allows Garmin to do a press release, which draws attention back to a product. Again as a prospective buyer, this tactic is as effective as "junk mail". But junk mail sometimes works, and any press is good press as the adage goes.

So I think it is less "keeping up the interest" and more drawing attention to itself.

[Curious Cat]

Originally posted by JMckie
Anders, I'm struggling to understand how software updates and help sales figures.

it is my impression that only existing owners really care about the software updates. As a prospective buyer doing research, I do sometimes take note that software updates exist, because it conveys a certain maturity to the product. But it rarely factors into the buying decision. Few non-owners would really care the list of updated features if they didn't know all about the features that were there in the first place.

One might argue that a software release allows Garmin to do a press release, which draws attention back to a product. Again as a prospective buyer, this tactic is as effective as "junk mail". But junk mail sometimes works, and any press is good press as the adage goes.

So I think it is less "keeping up the interest" and more drawing attention to itself.

The most obvious way is by creating updates that fix problems and insure a happy customer base. Let's throw this one out because you are probably referring to the enhancing not fixing type updates.

Updating the iQue helps to keep the current customers feeling good about their purchase. This helps the "word of mouth" advertising which is very important on a tech type product.

A customer is more inclined to buy from a company again when they get more not less then they bargained for and the updates do this also.

It helps keep the company’s currently available products more completive with other manufacturers until they are able to release the next major upgrade.

As you have noted, it can give the company a reason for a news release and also to email its current customer base and include some propaganda along with it.

It may keep you using the product long enough until they have a replacement ready to release instead of you becoming someone else's customer.

It allows them to refine techniques and feature that they maybe considering in future products.

It gives communities something to talk about and generate excitement. This buzz can have a tremendous affect on the potential buyer who is lurking. Just look at the frenzy that goes on around here when an update is announced.

[JMckie]

CC, when talking about sales figures, I understand the context to be for current products, not future products. A happy iQue owner will will not help sales figures for the iQue, except for the rare few who decide to buy a second unit.

As you pointed out there are many reasons for issuing a software update for the iQue. All I'm saying is that "increasing sales" is not likely to be one of them.

[Curious Cat]

Originally posted by JMckie
CC, when talking about sales figures, I understand the context to be for current products, not future products. A happy iQue owner will will not help sales figures for the iQue, except for the rare few who decide to buy a second unit.

As you pointed out there are many reasons for issuing a software update for the iQue. All I'm saying is that "increasing sales" is not likely to be one of them.

As I pointed out; a happy customer base can have a tremendous influence on potential buyers of the product. We've seen many (many we didi't see) people come here before making a purchase and I'm sure it's the same anywhere where a potential customer can check to see if current owners are happy. Don't you check the reviews before you make a purchase of this type?

[apersson850]

If the fact that the manufacturer provides free software updates to a product is known to a presumptive customer, it removes the sometimes existing hesitation to buy a new product, before the engineers have had ample time to smoke out the initial bugs. Now you don't risk much by being an early adopter, since you can be fairly convinced that the bugs, which are likely to lurk under the surface, will be corrected within some time, at only the cost of some time and internet access to you, the customer. Meanwhile, you can play with the initial functionality of the product, and the manufacturer can put your payment for the product into the cash flow required to keep the business going.

If software updates aren't released for free, but only introduced in new samples, as they are built, the manufacturer would be forced to get into some kind of warranty "repair", when it turns out that the earlier unit becomes unusable (like what happened when R1 iQues "saw" Egnos, and then died as soon as you unflipped the antenna) under certain circumstances. In such a case, the customer could argue that the unit does not perform as advertised, and it would be difficult to convince him of anything else, when the screen goes black as soon as you turn the unit on.
This is much more costly than letting the users fix their units on their own, more or less, as soon as you have released a software update, to make it possible. Even if new units released does have this improvement included, they would still have to take some care of the already sold samples.

Also, looking back at the functional evolvement of other Garmin GPS units (an action which can't be considered unrealistic by the cautious customer-to-be), would reveal that newer units in a product line have an increased number of functions, as well as a number of bugs corrected. This assumes that updates are indeed applied to products still assembled and sold, of course. Such a scheme is likely to postpone the customers decision to shell out the money, since it's obvious to him that if he waits a little longer, he may get a better product.

Another alternative is to never upgrade an existing model. But that either means that you have to release a new model, each time some bug, that really prevents the use of some important function, is discovered. Or it means that you have to spend more time in the lab and in filed tests, before you dare release a new product. During which time the revenue for this new product is zero, or even negative, since the engineering cost for testing will be noticeable.

To assure the customers that they don't risk anything, as far as the software is concerned, thus:
* Decreses the reluctance to buy early.
* Gives you a lot of test personnell, almost for free, quickly. Just listening to their complaints is a lot cheaper than having people on the payroll doing all the testing.
* Allows for early market placement, since it's no disaster if there is a significant problem or two. It's easily taken care of anyway.
* Allows for extended product life, since future developments can (sometimes) be added by simply changing the software.
* Overall, it increases early income and decreases product maintenance cost. Which is advantageous to business.

[JMckie]

Originally posted by Curious Cat
As I pointed out; a happy customer base can have a tremendous influence on potential buyers of the product. We've seen many (many we didi't see) people come here before making a purchase and I'm sure it's the same anywhere where a potential customer can check to see if current owners are happy. Don't you check the reviews before you make a purchase of this type?

I read a number of official reviews, most of which were glowing. Although I should have, I did not read any informal reviews on any message boards. (I did not find out about this forum until a hard reset caused by static shock forced me to look for help)

Honestly if I had looked at this forum at the time I was doing the purchase, I probably would not have bought it. I would have impressed by the how happy the users were, but I would have been scared away by repeated mentions of RMA. I am one of those to whom RMA is a four letter word.

I realize that if you do enough research, you can dig up enough scary things about almost any product. My point is that a messageboard can as easily scare a buyer away as much as it can convince them to buy.

[Curious Cat]

Originally posted by JMckie
I read a number of official reviews, most of which were glowing. Although I should have, I did not read any informal reviews on any message boards. (I did not find out about this forum until a hard reset caused by static shock forced me to look for help)

Honestly if I had looked at this forum at the time I was doing the purchase, I probably would not have bought it. I would have impressed by the how happy the users were, but I would have been scared away by repeated mentions of RMA. I am one of those to whom RMA is a four letter word.

I realize that if you do enough research, you can dig up enough scary things about almost any product.

If you had read, "Garmin releases update, no more RMA's ever needed!" you would have been positively influenced. :D

[JMckie]

Originally posted by apersson850
To assure the customers that they don't risk anything, as far as the software is concerned, thus:
* Decreses the reluctance to buy early.
* Gives you a lot of test personnell, almost for free, quickly. Just listening to their complaints is a lot cheaper than having people on the payroll doing all the testing.
* Allows for early market placement, since it's no disaster if there is a significant problem or two. It's easily taken care of anyway.
* Allows for extended product life, since future developments can (sometimes) be added by simply changing the software.
* Overall, it increases early income and decreases product maintenance cost. Which is advantageous to business.

While I agree wholeheartedly with these points, I do have to bring back the question to its original context. Which is:

How will the release of R4 impact the sales of additional iQue 3600 units?

With R2, the answer was clear. Hard resets are simply unacceptable and it would not have been a viable product.

There are many good reasons to give software updates but is it selling more products really one of them? I have yet to read one product review that mentions it (perhaps indirectly as "good customer service" but that phrase means a lot of things). "Free software updgrades" is rarely one of the bullet points in marketing materials.

Most importantly, consumers already assume that software should have free patches and releases. A potential buyer will not be swayed by something that in their mind, should be there. It is not really a competitive advantage if everyone has it.

Because the features and timing of R4 is unknown, even an official announcement that it is coming will have little to no effect on a prospective buyer who is deciding between the iQue and another unit. How can it? The buyer will only look at existing features.

[AlanJ]

I have to agree with JMckie. When I purchased my ique, I didnt even know about RMA or updates for the OS.. I looked at what it would do for me, how it would help me out with my job(Travelling), I had looked at other units, Tom-Tom etc but found that IQue fitted my wants/needs better. I only came to this forum AFTER buying my unit and only then found out about the impending R4 and even if I did know it wouldnt have affected by decision to buy.

[Curious Cat]

Originally posted by AlanJ
I have to agree with JMckie. When I purchased my ique, I didnt even know about RMA or updates for the OS.. I looked at what it would do for me, how it would help me out with my job(Travelling), I had looked at other units, Tom-Tom etc but found that IQue fitted my wants/needs better. I only came to this forum AFTER buying my unit and only then found out about the impending R4 and even if I did know it wouldnt have affected by decision to buy.

You are 100% right as far as it concerns you. Statistically speaking, you are an individual and not necessarily indicative of group behavior. I would imagine that there would be individuals who have reacted the same as you and otherwise.

We could conduct a poll but I feel like it would be unreliable in the other direction. No matter how you worded it, people who appreciate the updates may be swayed to vote that it did or would affect their buying decisions.


edit; How many times have you seen a thread started by someone who wants opinions and is considering a purchase?

[apersson850]

My opinion is that the release of further upgrades, to an existing hardware platform, does lengthen the life of that platform. If the upgrades keep it competitive for six more months, and you are selling 10000 units a month, then that generates whatever income they get from 60000 units sold.
Not releasing updates would of course not kill sales entirely, but they would be significantly less, if newer units offered features that weren't implemented on the older platforms.

Being a major player in this field, as Garmin is, there's also a certain cannibalism, i.e. their different products compete with each other. So the net result is almost impossible to determine accurately.

But I think everyone can agree upon that upgrades lengthen the lift of a product, and having a competitive product a longer time will generate more sales.

This is nothing that's particular to R4, but rather to Rx. Then of course it does depend upon what kind of changes you make to the software. Of the more than 200 modifcations released for the eTrex Vista so far, about 40% have added new functionality. The remaining changes took care of bugs and other issues.

Also, I don't say that issuing updates boost sales to those who already have an iQue. Most of them are lost as iQue customers, until you really introduce some better hardware, when some of them will upgrade. But the already present customers may be more inclined at buying Garmin again, if they think they've got something "for free" for their present unit. It's not at all "for free", since they've already payed for it, as every cost has to be included in the sales price for the product. But it feels like gratis when you don't have to pay now.

[reinbeau]

Originally posted by JMckie
CC, when talking about sales figures, I understand the context to be for current products, not future products. A happy iQue owner will will not help sales figures for the iQue, except for the rare few who decide to buy a second unit.

As you pointed out there are many reasons for issuing a software update for the iQue. All I'm saying is that "increasing sales" is not likely to be one of them. I disagree. If people know that Garmin cares about customer relations enough to upgrade the customer's investment in Garmin products, that will go a long way in the goodwill department. Goodwill actually figures in corporate reports. It is a real, tangible byproduct of good customer service/relations. It also gives the customer incentive to stick with Garmin products and buy upgrade units when they come out. I think Garmin is on the right track, we just don't know clearly what that track is. :)

[rocket666]

I had never heard of garmin before the ique. While I have not needed an rma, hearing that others have have great results with cust service helps to keep me a loyal customer. If software updates keep coming, that too will keep me thinking good things about garmin. I wouldn't even mind paying for a better product. If the wish list we've generated here got implemented, I would certainly pay.

On the other hand, I own a tivo competitor (called UTV) by microsoft. They have abandoned providing updates, and we owners are still paying a $10 monthly fee. MS has gone into other areas and have left a somewhat disgruntled customer base. While the software is still quite good compared to their competitors, they've not fixed one or two annoying bugs.

So, I for one refuse to upgrade to windows XP (I'll keep w2k) and I certainly won't shell out for newer office software. True, they still have tons of cash, but I am betting that MS will go the way of giants like DEC (remember them, they had the fastest microprocessor in the 90's - alpha) who refused to listen to the needs of their customers and didn't provide the updates needed to keep their customers happy.

In an industry that must build customer bridges to new products so far I quite happy to be on the garmin bandwagon. But if they drop software support now, they won't keep me as a customer.

[donc13]

Originally posted by JMckie
That someone was me and you've got to be kidding.

Gartner report from a year ago:
http://www4.gartner.com/5_about/press_releases/pr29apr2003a.jsp

Sony had the second largest market share next to Palm in Palm devices in the US and worldwide. Palm had worse than 20% decline while Sony had a growth rate of over 50%. I trust that the free market will correctly determine "price points".

It is well understood that the bulk of Palm market share is the low end, little better than an organizer, graduation gift Zires.

Garmin is such a niche player in this market that it always falls under the 'Other' category.

That report was a year old when Sony decided to drop out of the market.

[msujim]

Originally posted by rocket666
...
On the other hand, I own a tivo competitor (called UTV) by microsoft. They have abandoned providing updates, and we owners are still paying a $10 monthly fee. MS has gone into other areas and have left a somewhat disgruntled customer base.
...
I know where you're coming from -- I've been there myself. My first PDA was a TI Avigo, and further back, my first LaserJet printer used the "Windows Printing System" rather than Postscript. At least ReplayTV is still providing software updates for my unit.

While I second your approval of Garmin's customer service and wholeheartedly endorse your contempt for M$, there's an important difference between the UTV situation and the iQue. M$ stopped providing software support for UTV around the time they stopped selling the hardware (got out of the DVR business, as it were). At least they're still providing the Guide service which keeps your UTV more useful that a boat anchor.

Garmin is still selling & supporting the iQue, so it's reasonable to expect software updates. If Garmin abandon's the PDA/GPS market, I doubt they'd continue releasing software updates after they stop selling the h/w. I appreciated the updates Garmin provided for my GPS III, but it's now unsupported. The last update is still available on their website (last time I checked).

I guess my point is that while Garmin's customer support for the iQue has generally been great, when they obsolete the hardware I don't expect the result to be any different from M$'s treatment of UTV.

[rocket666]

I understand your logic with M$ and the ique. But in business, that sort of logic does not matter. The customer is king. We got the $$$ and they want it. Only when companies have govt granted monopolies can they both stay afloat and anger customers. Thankfully this is not the post office we are dealing with.

M$ even advertised that updates via sattelite was a feature, so we got to expect them (not to mention we pay $10 while tivo owners pay only $5 for the guide). Given there have been updates by garmin, if they stop updating, they will be sending me a message that says they are not as wonderful a company as I thought they were. I don't have to be fair with them, since it's my $$$. If they want my repeat business, they have to win my loyalty now with some updates.