FYI - new RIM service: Telnet-SSH

[dzzt]

Please don't slam me. I thought someone might find the following information interesting and valuable!

If you'd like to use your RIM pager to access your network servers, switches, etc. using Telnet & SSH, check out AVIDTelnet-SSH at http://www.avidwireless.com.

It may help you stay out of the office during this holiday season!

Thanks!

[TrueToTheCrew]

Its really slow on 95X/85X devices. allot faster on Java / MDS devices

[avidwireless]

As the developer of the AVIDTelnet-SSH product, the response speed is largely dependent on the Mobitex network (Rogers or Cingular) and can vary from 2 seconds to (occasionally) 8 seconds or more. To help reduce user's data usage charges our gateway does buffer up and compress up to 1 second of Telnet response or 510 bytes, since transmitting every Telnet or SSH TCP/IP packet directly would incur a large overhead and unneeded transmission cost.

On a 95x/85x device I would say 2-3 seconds is typical round trip response, with the majority of the time being taken by the Mobitex network, which we have no control over. Other wireless network technologies (GPRS, WCDMA) are typically faster.

One more item worth noting. Currently the service is only available on the 95X device. 85X is scheduled sometime in Dec, and the J2ME devices sometime in Jan. AVIDWireless is continually expanding there product lines to include other devices as well.

So my question to TrueToTheCrew would be which service did you try? Maybe you would like to try our product?

[Sonic Mobility]

For an enterprise remote systems administration utility supporting the RIM 957s and also the new Java RIMs, try out the free trial of sonicadmin from Sonic Mobility at http://www.sonicmobility.com/ . As the recent winner of multiple awards including Best Software 2002 - Networking Category from Pocket PC Magazine, Best of Show Finalist at MEC, World Class Product Award from Wireless Business and Technology Magazine, and others, it is worth checking out.

[davidson]

In congested areas - like New York, Los Angeles and Toronto, Mobitex latency can be upwards of 1 to 2 minutes or even more. Users have probably noticed the effects of this when they have blank periods with no email receipt or when they receive a chunk of emails in a single burst.

Real-time applications like telnet over Mobitex just don't cut it in congested areas. Telnet is also not only a real-time app but mission-critical one.

Cingular (and Rogers) need to work on this network issue if they want to open the market to more real time applications.

However, in smaller cities congestion isn't always an issue - like Calgary or Phoenix.

People who are considering use of these technologies should be looking to the applications available for the more recent Blackberrys - the 6700, 6500 and 5800 series - higher data throughput, much greater coverage, and currently from my (user) experience much less congestion.

[avidwireless]

Davidson is correct where one cell in a congested area will get overloaded and your response will seem like 1-2 minutes at least, if not actually that long. However another cell in the same city may not have that issue. It is not necessarily the entire metro area and it may move around based upon activity. We have seen the issue when everyone in a building has a RIM and only one cell is supporting the building. It is a Mobitex problem which AVIDWireless can not fix.

That said, the product is still better than having to drive into work or go home to dial in. When you are at Grandmas next Thursday and a server starts having problems, so what if it takes you 15 minutes to fix the problem with only 5 commands, your relatives (and spouse) did not get upset because you had to leave to fix a problem. The product is a time saver tool, even with poor response time. You may even prevent a complete outage by being able to respond faster.

We are also working on expanding the product beyond the RIM 95x devices, such as the 5000 and 6000 series devices and plan on expanding to any wireless device, not just Mobitex, to help provide solutions in highly congested areas and more options for all users.

[Sonic Mobility]

Sonicadmin telnet and SSH runs on both platforms (Mobitex and GPRS/iDEN) and from our observations, as long as you have a direct connection between the Mobitex Network and the TCP/IP network you have much less of an issue with latency. This doesn't count a specific cell being overloaded where your BlackBerry says you are connected, when in actuality you have been bumped.

In general usage conditions we have found the latency on the Mobitex with a TCP/IP bridge (as opposed to using the messaging layer for communications) is the only way to deliver Near Real Time funcitonality like that required by Telnet and SSH. We've also found that the GPRS network is not necessarily faster or more reliable as GPRS data connections can be bumped as voice traffic in a region increases.

[avidwireless]

I think both Sonic and ourselves are saying the same thing and have the same experience. If there is not an issue with a particular cell (either Mobitex/Motient/GPRS/iDEN/1xRTT) being overloaded ("This doesn't count a specific cell being overloaded..."), then the network latency is extremely small on any of the networks, and you get near Real-Time response, since our gateways are talking directly with the network layer.

But in crowded areas (like downtown NYC) will almost always will experience cell congestion, and that is something that no vendor can fix. At our office I typically see sub-second response from when my input goes out and when I see it coming back to my RIM. When we have done test with users around the US and Canada, in most cases almost immediately as soon as they hit enter we see their data pass through our gateway to their host. With most Telnet-type traffic, the difference between a 8K Mobitex or 20 to 40K GPRS connection isn't noticeable.

[Mark D. Rejhon]

I have been testing AVIDTelnetSSH for its suitability for realtime chat applications for the deaf (Using Blackberry as a TTY/TDD for the deaf. Basically connecting to a Linux system connected to a TTY modem.) I have had some really great success and the response is light year's better than WyndTell's (www.wynd.com) chat features, with a 4-second roundtrip latency instead of 10-to-15-second latency. Incoming chat text gets printed near-realtime bursts every 2 seconds frequency (I can even make it go as low as 1 second, but I wouldn't recommend it for Mobitex networks, reliability goes down)

The other thing to keep in mind if using AVIDTelnetSSH for chat applications, is that at the current version of Avid's Telnet server, slowly-but-continuously-printing text from the remote end being sent ..... the Avid Telnet server buffers up all the text until the user from the other end of the Telnet connection stops typing. That will artifically inflate latency.

I solved the problem by inserting artifical pauses every 2 seconds in my chat software (Linux TTY/TDD relay software). That solved the problem and now I can make realtime telephone calls from my Blackberry 950! (It also works with relay service for the deaf, which is the continent-wide phone number 711)

It works like this:

Blackberry
-> AVIDTelnetSSH
-> -> Home Linux Box
-> -> -> Connected to TDD Modem
-> -> -> -> Home Telephone Line

I have evaluated SonicAdmin Telnet and NeedTEXT shell to compare to AvidTelnetSSH. The former (SonicAdmin) is a pretty neat Enterprise tool that's overkill for this type of small application, while NeedTEXT works well but requires a $24.95-per-month fee and an intermediate server (as opposed to $9.95 per month).

Since I am probably one of the first to seriously use a telnet application for a chat application on a Blackberry (to make my Blackberry the equivalent of a cellphone for the deaf) I found out quite a few issues with all the software, but the AVID people seemed to be the most responsive and had an understanding of what I was trying to attempt.

I'm in Canada too. The other thing to keep in mind is if you are lucky to be in Canada, there's a twist: $9.95 US per month apparently buys you unlimited telnet bandwidth in Canada if you are already on Roger's unlimited Blackberry plan ($49.95 CDN per month) due to the way things work between them and Rogers. That means I can realtime-chat away on my Blackberry as much as I want for all local telephone calls, even during the day.

Chat doesn't use up much total bandwidth (My Go-WEB is a bandwidth hog).... but it certainly transits/receive a lot of small packets. There's a lot of overhead which can drastically affect your monthly plan if you are on a low-KB plan and you use telnet for chat application for the deaf.

(Note: As of right now, due to the behaviour of current Blackberry telnet clients, it benefits greatly to write custom TTY software. I now have custom TTY software running on a Linux system. I'm trying to decide what to do with it; i.e. sell it to other deaf users, maybe port it to Windows so that people only require a DSL connection.)

[Sonic Mobility]

That is a very creative use of the application! A cell phone for deaf people. I am most impressed! I would have to agree that sonicadmin would be overkill for that, and certainly not what it was constructed to do.

I applaud your creative problem solving!

[Mark D. Rejhon]

Thanks! I probably made the first voice telephone call from a Canadian Blackberry 950 pager! (I can do near-realtime operator-assisted text-to-voice via relay at phone number 711). Wyndtell provides a similiar, but higher-latency service, and ONLY in the USA...

Nontheless, I was impressed at how sonicadmin was able to access files on my computer. I think that's useful for other applications.

[Mark D. Rejhon]

avidwireless,

I just remembered.

I think TrueToTheCrew meant the application's performance instead of the latency performance. (ANY kind of wireless-provider inserts a bit of latency in telnet anyway, so not a big issue...) I agree that AvidTelnetSSH application performance is very slow (on 950 at least) especially for fast thumb typists. I type 65 words per minute on a Blackberry but the text in the bottom textbox only can accept text at approximately 40 words per minute (even when nothing is being received and I am not transmitting anything). This indicates an application performance issue that needs to be improved, at least for the keypress-accepting function; i.e. there is local keypress lag in the AvidTelnetSSH application that is not caused by the network.

Not sure but I think avidwireless is already fixing this because I emailed avidwireless about it and they thanked me for my feedback. They even told me have a server-side fix already thanks to a diferent issue that I reported when using telnet for a chat application (which was really not what the blackberry telnet applications were originally designed to do anyway!).

I'm impressed at how responsive avidwireless has been to my emails. It's also very easy to sign up for AvidTelnet service.

[avidwireless]

Mark,
You are correct in that we are working on the keyboard delay issue. 65 wpm is slightly faster they our testers type with the RIM, we are impressed. Once it is available, the new client will be posted on our web site www.avidwireless.com.

Have fun with your RIM 950 cell phone. We are always thrilled when our products can help in ways we had not imagined.

[Skive]

Just to clarify something, is the j2me version a standalone app that would use the devices existing connection or would it still be going via your gateway?

[Sonic Mobility]

I think you were referring to avidwireless upcoming application, but FYI sonicadmin is currently available for the RIM Java Blackberries. We use the BES/MDS on the back end and there is no third party gateway involved.