New OS installation problem

[Calbrit]

I have downloaded the latest OS from the Teklogix site and followed the instructions to the letter. That is, using PSiWin I transferred the new image file onto the flash disk (having removed the old image file - I put a copy on another disk just in case). I renamed the file as OS.IMG then removed the batteries in correct sequence and allowed 15 seconds to elapse before replacing the batteries. The Netbook beeps once with the installation of the main battery. On opening it up I am faced with a screen that has the wallpaper "One-Ed.com" (obviously a reference to where the Netbook was originally destined before being sold into EBAY). The Netbook does not respond to the new OS on the disk and instead does nothing.

Fortunately, if I use the previous OS image file it works and after another beep, the standard Netbook applications are installed after a few seconds or so.

The release on the OS I received with the Netbook is :

Version1.05 (281) English (UK) - ASCII (Release 158)

I downloaded:

Version 1.05 (453) English (USA) - ASCII (Release 158) is it maybe because I am trying to install a US version?

(By the way looking at the above Version 1.05 (281) versus (453) is there much difference to warrant me upgrading?)

Any solutions/advice will be gratefully received.

[netBookBabe]

Grant

Not sure if I can shed any light on this or not, but I had a similar problem trying to install the new OS. Like you, just no reaction from the nB at all - it stuck its nose in the air and was clearly NOT impressed!

In my case, the general concensus was that the OS.IMG file may have been fragmented because I put it on to a disk which contained other data. I did put it in the root of the disk, by the way, before anyone asks.

I didn't have a spare empty CF at the time, but I was quickly rescued by another netBook owner who kindly loaned me his disk to install from. I have now acquired a spare 16Mb CF which I intend to keep just for this file, and hope I won't have the same problem next time - no doubt there WILL be a next time! ;)

There were some bugs in the early version of build 158, which were fixed in the later releases, along with some other improvements. Yours sounds like it might be an early version, so I think you would do well to try and get the later one installed if you can, Grant.

Mine is Version 1.05(450) - English(UK) - ASCII (Release 158)

Perhaps someone else can clarify further on the different versions?

Julie

[Calbrit]

Thanks Julie - what a guiding light you are!!

The only other file that was on the flash disk was a word file but this was the flash disk I removed the original OS file from as well as a large number of example files that came with the Netbook. So who knows it may be a glitch so I will reformat a 16mb CF and send the new OS to this and like you keep it just for the OS.

Thanks again.

Grant

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by Calbrit
Thanks Julie - what a guiding light you are!!I don't know about that Grant - feel like I'm in the dark most of the time, lol! :D

It does sound like we both had the same problem here, so I'll be interested to know how it goes when you try again from a freshly formatted disk.

As for me, I'm leaving well alone with the netBook for now, since it seems reasonably content. I've got a new 5mx requiring my attention at the moment! ;)

Julie

[Calbrit]

Unfortunately, no joy with the reformatted CF with the new OS on it. The Netbook just shows the "wallpaper" and doesn't load the flash disk's image file. So, I'm putting the original OS system back on until I can find out what the solution is. Maybe it doesn't like the US version! I may try downloading the UK version later just to see if it works but ultimately this is not ideal as the spell check in Word etc will be wrong for the US.

This is a little frustrating.

Grant

[Calbrit]

........the Saga continues! An interesting development is that I have three flash cards containing both the old and new OS (note that only one version was used at a time in the root directory of the CF disk) and have tried both the old OS and the new OS and experienced the following results:

Simple 16mb CF (reformatted on my 5mx) - only file on Card

Old OS - wouldn't work on start up
New OS - wouldn't work on start up

Memorex 64 CF (other files were on the card)

Old OS - worked OK on start up
New OS - wouldn't work on start up

Digimaster 64CF (came with the Netbook - other files on card))

Old OS - - worked OK on start up
New OS - wouldn't work on start up


I don't have a clue what all this means but maybe one of our clever colleagues can cast light on what might be the solution.

Thanks in anticipation

Grant
PS I am still delighted with the Netbook! - this is just an irritating issue.

[diem]

Hmmm. This is all very interesting.

It has already been ascertained that this supply of netBooks is from a bespoke deal done for "One-Ed", whoever they may be.

I happen to know that if the order is large enough, Psion Teklogix do make modifications to the OS to meet the customers specific requirements.

The fact that when you turn the netBook on from cold, you get a One-Ed branded screen tells us that in this case, they have also modified the bootloader. This leads me to suspect that the bootloader is tweaked to look for only one version of the OS :eek:

I would suggest that you download as many different OS releases as you can, and try them all out (If needs be, I can supply you with a couple of different UK releases). If none but the supplied one install, then this state of affairs is confirmed.

Whether it is bad or not is a judgement call. If you intend to use the netBook with an ethernet card, you may find the most problems; indeed, do you have an 'Ethernet' item in Control Panel?

Also, does your machine have Opera installed (if so, which version) and also nFTP and NetStatRF?

[markdeppe]

I do not know how you fit the new os onto a 16MB CF. Maybe it is just mine, but the 16MB CF card Hitachi which came with the netbook when freshly formated displays 12.9MB capacity 12.8MB available and the new OS is 13.9MB.......

I have the new os installed in the root directory of a 128MB CF with loads of other files and folders in the directory and it boots up the netbook OK.

[Calbrit]

On first starting my Netbook and going quickly through the applications I thought I had opened OPera. Now trying this again it says it's not installed (it's INI file is in the system application folder).

Netstart (whatever that is) is not loaded but NFTP is.

I doubt I will be using ethernet though I will want Opera - I have the latest Download if I cannot get the new OS to install OK.

[markdeppe]

Grant really hope you get to install a different OS than the one it shipped with please post as soon as you know as they are selling quick on ebay unreserved one just gone for £350 so if other OS can be installed it will make a difference as to whether to buy or not :-)

[Calbrit]

Well, unless I'm doing something wrong the EBAY Netbooks from "bestdealbiz" can only run on the supplied OS and cannot recognise the upgraded Psion Teklogix OS image files. I reach this conclusion having tried both the latest US and UK versions but with no success. The Netbok screen remains on the wallpaper with these but "fires" up after about 5 seconds on the original.

I e-mailed the vendor regarding the lack of a warranty card (as he advertises them new) and to say that he is advertising the fact that Netbooks OS is upgradable but it seems not to be. His reply was:

"The OEM version does not provide warranty on the package. The product part number is one of the way Psion able to track your item.

And for any OS upgrade you might direct the inquiry to Psion for support"

Oh well, apart from the OS upgrade issue, the Netbook is just fine. I'm not sure I'll miss what I haven't had as I am unlikely to need ethernet or mobile phone connections where I think the bugs have been detected on previous versions.

I am greatly enjoying using the Netbook and being familiar with the applications, I feel in control of the unit as opposed to it controlling me, which is the case with my PC and Windows!! I can also rest my trusty 5mx (and eyes) as my main machine for a while and use the Netbook for most of my business and private computing needs.

Grant
PS However, if anyone comes up with a reason/solution/suggestion to get the new OS onto my Netbook, please post the information - Many thanks!!

[netBookBabe]

Grant

I'm pleased to hear you taking a pragmatic approach to the apparent snags you have discovered with the netBook, and I think you are right, it probably will meet most of your requirements, regardless.

I can't see any problem with mobile phone connectivity, actually - unless I've missed something - I don't recall any bugs reported on that score. No doubt someone will put me straight there!

Anyhow, Grant, it sounds like you are enjoying your netBook - good for you! :)

Julie

[raindog]

just a thought (not even my to be honest) - can't all those new ebay netBooks appear to be 7books?

[diem]

don't quite get you raindog - what do you mean by 'appear to be 7Books'?

If you mean, are they 7Books being sold as netBooks, I doubt it. All the signs are that they really are a bespoke netBook order. In any case, there have been no reports of 7Books not loading different OS releases...

[daredevil]

Hi Calbrit,
It can be confirmed that the netBook you have is a specially customised netBook with O/S not upgradable with the normal netBook O/S. This variant is sold to the Malaysian school pilot project as the Malaysian eBook or My School Book. The boot Rom is different and can't accept any new O/S made available on Psion Teklogix site. Anyway, I believe most apps is available with the O/S, Cisco LAN card support and Opera (3.62). If you want O/S upgradable, you'll have to buy the netBook boot Rom as those who are converting their S7 to netBook.

[Calbrit]

Thanks for the info. Firstly, when you say "it can be confirmed" do you have "inside knowledge" on this? Secondly, if this is true I wonder why would Psion bother to restrict the OS upgrade option? Apart from the wallpaper logo change, and lack of pre loaded Opera, all the other functions seem identical to standard Netbook. Surely it could not have been a cost saving? If it was then it must have been very small indeed.

Anyway, from my point of view, I lived happily with my 5mx's OS for years (I bought one of the first) and the Netbook I have is now working fine and meets all my requirements. I got it for about half the retail price (should have waited another 2 weeks as they are now going for less on EBAY!) and so consider my savings to significantly outweigh the options for upgrading to fix minor bugs. I'm not really bothered about being precluded from any future entirely new OS that may come along as no doubt this too will bring a number of minor problems to sort out which also would be time consuming (but fun to some!).

My Netbook is primarily to help me run my business (and me!) and so as long as it performs as it should (i.e. as now) I'm happy to leave it "as is". Maybe I'll come across the odd ocassional problem in the future where others with the latest OS would have no problem, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Meanwhile, I'm glad I made the decision to get one and look forward to using it more than my PC - this has already started. I have far more trust in storing my information on the Netbook and CF disks than I have on my PC! The versatility for one thing - I can copy relevant files onto a CF or via EpocSync into my Mako or 5mx which may, on occassions, be more appropriate to take with me.

Grant

[netBookBabe]

Hi daredevil - good to see you here on Psion Place :)

Thanks for supplying what seems to be the last piece of the puzzle regarding these particular netBooks. Interesting that the specification on the eBay advert does say "Operating System is software upgradeable" - hmmmm.

I wonder if other buyers will be so tolerant and philosophical as Grant? On the other hand, they might not even be aware that everything is not *quite* what it should have been!

Julie

[markdeppe]

thanks Daredevil and Grant this has been a facinating journey of a mystery.

<<<If you want O/S upgradable, you'll have to buy the netBook boot Rom as those who are converting their S7 to netBook.>>> This is really useful to know - needless to say I wouldn't have thought of it myself - so If someone got one cheap and brought the 7book chip all would be well, except for the point Julie made about it not being the latest model with new motherboard etc (as these netbooks were sold long before that was released, unless they sent it out to Malasia before releasing it here). So all is not lost for those who want the leading edge tech with the leading edge challenges :-) at a good price.

I appreciate your philosophy on the matter Grant, not sure I would have taken it so well. As you say still a bargain, and great machine beating windows hands down.

<<<I have far more trust in storing my information on the Netbook and CF disks>>> Me too, though be wary that corrupt CF cards happens (happened to me big time very traumatic as I stored essential on the CF), and in a sense the C:/ has proved safest for me and I store vital and all working active files there (as well as having the CF backup), with never any loss of info (2 CF backups belt'nBraces is what I recommend). Watch for setting the auto switch of to less than 30mins as this can cause tripple beep resets using IR - happened to me and corrupt CF which was being written to at the time by email app, since shifted "store messages" back to C:/ Also see here for duff disks great website for Psions netbook and 7 etc. http://www.skilton.net/5mx/

I also have a 5mx and it is great having the netbook to share files Syn with. Be aware though if you copy the whole of the netbook C:/ including system to the 5mx (I do this and have got used to the effect) it remaps the silkscrenn buttons of the 5mx (not the end of the world) and certain short cuts in apps will not work right until reset in the app as the 5mx keyboard layout is slightly different e.g. Fn-o I have set in phoneman to go to the out box on the netbook but Fn-o on a 5mx puts the character "-" istead so does not operate the designated function (Again its a minor bother)

Good to hear all is well and happy with you and psion, Man and machine in Harmony, long may it continue.

[Calbrit]

Thanks Mark for the "tips" I will keep a record of these for future use. As regards the comment:

"If you want O/S upgradable, you'll have to buy the netBook boot Rom as those who are converting their S7 to netBook"

Aren't these upgrades to ROM causing a few problems of their own or are these now sorted?

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by Calbrit
Aren't these upgrades to ROM causing a few problems of their own or are these now sorted? I don't think so really, Grant, apart from some issues raised by the lower power on the PCMCIA slot on an S7. In your case, you would be starting with a "true" netBook (as far as we can tell) so I would imagine it would be absolutely fine on all counts.

Julie

[daredevil]

Hi Grant,
The restriction on the O/S is due to specific specs as required for the project and requirement for running the java based support apps to connect to server. Getting a customised boot rom also help in maintaining uniformity in the deployment to the field. Imagine you have about 5000 units under your charge. Most project would prefer differentiation from general consumer specs. It is quite similar to the MC218 which has its own apps.:D

[Turbo]

I don't know a ton about the Netbook in particular, but I do know a ton about bootloaders.

Is this customized boot loader looking for a specific signature on the OS.IMG file? If so, it might be possible to "adjust" the signature on a recent OS image to match what it's expecting.

Has anybody analyzed the OS image to see what the differences are?

- Mike

[markdeppe]

Turbo

I don't know much about either other than using a netbook a ton and loving it, but what you say sounds interesting as it would save people buying the 7book chip to upgrade the OS of these grey imports. Not sure from your posting if you have a netbook but the OS.img can be got from here for free (you have to register) http://partners.psionteklogix.com/ptxcms/CORE.asp?s=com&p=PartnerProgram

I am sure others who are technically minded can shed some light on this though on this forum

[Calbrit]

Nice thought Mike!! As I have said above, the current OS I have is fine but I look forward to hearing about any one cracking the problem - even if it's so I can save on buying the Opera software!

By the way, am I the only one with one of these EBAY units? If not maybe any other owners would like to share their experiences/thoughts.

Grant

[charlie.stross]

I'm waiting to find out if I've landed one of these netbooks. (Auction ends in, oh, not very long at all.)

Should I understand that these Malaysian machines can't do wireless networking at all? If so I'll be deeply unamused ...

[Turbo]

Sorry, Charlie :)

But when it arrives, I can let you know if it works with wireless, and if I've managed to get the OS update installed!

- Mike

[markdeppe]

As I understand the story so far, it won't do wireless with the fixed OS it ships with and at present the only upgrade solutionseems to be buying the netbook (7book) chip. hopefully Turbo will let us know if there is a way round this.

[Calbrit]

Turbo - when will you be getting yours? Is it a brand new machine?

[Tubrat]

I have purchased on of these Malaysian Psion Netbooks (still waiting for it to clear customs) and am now a little concerned as the only reason for my decision was being able access the internet using wireless technology. When I read about the recent OS upgrade I had made up my mind to get a unit.

I will be contacting the seller to see what can be done. At the price I paid the Psion is a good value, but not exactly what I wanted.

Vern

[Turbo]

I'm still working on a comparison of the images... Does anybody have an older OS.IMG? I have a copy of the proprietary OS.IMG for these one-ed netbooks, and a copy of the latest OS.IMG from psion-teklogix, but it would be helpful to also compare to an older standard release OS.IMG from psion also.

So, if you have an older version lying around, let me know!

E-Mail: psionguy@filter.turbolink.net

[netBookBabe]

Turbo

I've got the OS.IMG originally supplied with my netBook, purchased new in August 2000. I think it was build 156, IIRC - is that any help?

Julie

[Turbo]

Originally posted by netBookBabe
Turbo

I've got the OS.IMG originally supplied with my netBook, purchased new in August 2000. I think it was build 156, IIRC - is that any help?

Julie

Yes, that would be perfect.

- Mike

[GaryTheHat]

Would it be possible to upgrade or change the firmware on the chip or is this not possible. This would solve the OS problems and mean we could all upgrade.

Also, are these Netbooks still okay for using with the newer mobile phones available? I need mine for e-mail and Faxing while working away from the office.

If anyone has the original OS supplied with the E-Bay netbook please could I have a copy (UK version) I wiped the image file by mistake.

Thanks

Gary

[WolfUK]

One quick idea, a while ago I posted some information about reprogramming the 7 and netBook with it's identity (this was during the 7Book discussions I think). Would this method be of any use in reidentifying the One-ED netBooks?

A copy of my posting can be found at http://www.pdastreet.com/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=3534&highlight=reprogram

[wanman]

Hi Grant & rest,

I found the following on the Psion Techlogix website which may be of help to you all:


If you have lost/deleted/renamed or otherwise damaged the card or file, you have a couple of options.

1) You can download the latest O/S from our web-site and put it onto a CF card using some technology of your own. You might have a SanDisk card reader attached to your PC, or a PCMCIA slot with CF adapter on your laptop, or a digital device with CF card which you can upload to, or another netBook/S7/S5 available.
You will find the latest O/S available for ftp or http download in the netBook PDK on the Partner Program section of the Psion Teklogix web-site. You need to register to go there, but this is a straightforward (and free!) process. The URL is currently http://partners.psionteklogix.com/netbookpdk/os_systems.htm, although this is likely to change soon as a site re-design is being planned.

2) The netBook is also shipped with a CD and a serial cable. If you put the CD in a Windows PC, and connect it to the netBook with the serial lead, you can use the RomInst program on the CD to download a copy of the O/S which is also on the disk. (On some versions of the CD, this app is called RomLoad). You will find it in the Extras\RomInst (or Extras\RomLoad) directory. Just double-click on it and follow the on-screen instructions. You need to have already installed PsiWin on your PC for this to work.
May be worth checking your CD for this alternative ROMINST program. If this doesn't work, you could always ask a friendly netbook owner to send you a copy of their CD to try?? Or perhaps and even friendlier Diem could post the relevant soft on his website?? ;)


3) You can also make use of the fact that, as well as starting Link, the netBook boot-loader also starts a Ymodem file transfer session on the RS232 port. As such you can bypass RomInst and just download the O/S directly using HyperTerminal or similar. This is useful if you have also lost/damaged your CD, or have picked up a newer O/S from the Web, or don't have a Windows machine.
Select a speed of 115200 (8bits, 1 stop bit, No parity, hardware flow control) on the PC and you should see a "Psion Ymodem Bootloader" welcome message from the netBook when you connect. Select "Send File" from the menu and send the O/S img using a Ymodem protocol. This will take about 20 minutes.

Hope some of this lot helps

Regards

Si

[Calbrit]

Many Thanks - just tried that but it still doesn't start up with the new OS. I did this quickly and think I did so correctly but may have misssed something. Maybe if another "Malayian Project Owner" (MPO!) could have a try they may have more success.

Grant

[diem]

Ooh I didn' know about the Ymodem option! That's a REALLY handy last-ditch get-out-of-jail-free card :D

Unfortunately, I don't think that this would defeat the Malaysian netBook bootloader, because

the netBook boot-loader also starts a Ymodem file transfer session

So the bootloader has initiated the transfer, and will be able to run its checksum (or however else they identify the correct OS image) and therefore reject a newer OS. I think.

Still, if it were me, I know I'd give it a go :rolleyes:

[netBookBabe]

By the way, nice bit of research there by Psion Place's very own official ferret - aka wanman! :D

Julie

[Calbrit]

Ignore my above post I was referring to the Psion small "blow" file downloads not the CD route which I will try today.

Thanks!

Grant

[Calbrit]

I couldn't get that to work! Netbook linked to PC (PsiWin 2.3.3 installed), link "on" (verified in "My Psion" window), clicked on Romload - "Could not find Psion" was the result. Tried this a few times. Rebooted my PC (as sometimes after web connections my PC/PsiWin not happy - usually a programme stays running in the background - rebooting cures) but still no joy.

Could someone else with an EBAY Malaysian Netbook have a go with their CD as described above and post the result so our research findings are based on more than one machine.

Grant

[daredevil]

As far as I know, this "netBook" is better than when we have the netBook features with O/S build 156. It support Wireless LAN with Cisco card and can do ftp. If you want all the features in build 156 O/S plus Wireless LAN then it should work for you. You definitely don't need build 158 which has been released by Psion Teklogix which fix the bugs they introduced in the initial release of 158 and adding support for Wireless LAN, GPRS and ISDN for the new board.

[Calbrit]

Hi Daredevil.

"You definitely don't need build 158 which has been released by Psion Teklogix which fix the bugs they introduced in the initial release of 158 and adding support for Wireless LAN, GPRS and ISDN for the new board."

I'm getting confused here - the Malaysian Netbook I have is EPOC Release 5 Version 1.05 (281) - English (UK) - ASCII (Release 158). It does incorporate Ftp.

Therefore, do you think that this is an early158 with "bugs" and no support for wireless LAN, GPRS and ISDN?

Thanks,

Grant

[daredevil]

Hi Grant,
I heard from my source that this project use Cisco Wireless Lan access to the Web application for the school project. Thus, wireless LAN has to be working for the project where it was intended. Check on your Ethernet icon on Control Panel and it show some preconfigured settings for this project.

[Calbrit]

Thanks Daredevil and yes, there are some pre sets:

Cisco LAN
IrLAN
LAN
Lucent/Orinoco RLAN
rLan

So what does this all now mean?

I have a Netbook that seems to do everything a Netbook should with the exception of accepting the current OS upgrade from Teklogix. The only other negative is that it shows non EPOC wallpaper as the standard default.

I paid half the current retail price for a new unit but do not have a warranty. The question is, given the above, should anyone with one of these be unhappy with their auction item?

Grant
PS I exclude from this the fact that the seller was less than honest in his advertising - that's a different subject!

[WolfUK]

Grant,

I think on balance that I would be happy. I would hope that Psion release new netBook OSes in the future (I'd like Bluetooth card support amongst other things) but the version of the netBook that you have is current and should do everything that you want or need it to do for the forseeable future.

Look at if from my point of view, I spent around £350 on a netBook on Ebay that literally came with just the stylus and the power adaptor, looked as if it had been attacked by a dog and needed a new screen a month or two after it arrived. I don't think you got a bad deal at all really and you never know, Psion might clear all of this up and release a bootloader fix.

[GaryTheHat]

Hi All,

These netbooks seem to be working for people ok at the moment. I have been using mine a lot to test it out. Psion's reponse I felt was quite hard considering the fact they work ok. I have asked the vendor for a refund on the point of being misled, but and this is a big but, if these machines are going to work then I shall be keeping mine as well. What we need is a positive reponse from Psion on what they can do for the 100's of people who have bought one. I have asked again from psion all the things that are different, which I hope to hear soon. Is it a case of them being worried, if there are so many of these machines about no one will buy a new one, hence sales dropping like mad!!!

Gary

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by GaryTheHat
Is it a case of them being worried, if there are so many of these machines about no one will buy a new one, hence sales dropping like mad!!! Absolutely!! This is what makes me question the likelihood of them helping out with this problem. :(

Julie

[Calbrit]

Interesting situation.

By not helping out the owners of these machines re the OS issue, Psion may indeed protect sales of new machines to some extent if potential buyers, put off by the "problem", decide not to buy from EBAY. However, buyers of the Malasian sourced units may not have bought new from Psion anyway due to the high retail price.

I thought I read somewhere that Psion were having problems keeping up with demand on new Netbooks (this EBAY batch will help them out then! :) )

However, by helping find a solution to the OS issue, Psion will be providing true customer service and strengthening their brand values for their remaining retail custiomers loyal to the EPOC cause. They've made their profit on the original sale to the Malaysian School Project anyway - and by the way, what's wrong with a transferrable "warranty" if the machines are new.

Psion's focus is now on "Corporate" sales and I'm sure that their response had we been a corporation (hey, even the Malaysian School Project) asking about solutions to the OS problem, they would provide one knowing that we may be a hardware customer in the future (or indeed not as a result of their co operation/lack of).

Given that the current lack of OS upgradeability and the deafult wallpaper are the only two differences between this Netbook and a standard Psion issue, I still wonder why they bothered to alter anything in the first place!


Grant

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by Calbrit
... by helping find a solution to the OS issue, Psion will be providing true customer service and strengthening their brand values for their remaining retail custiomers loyal to the EPOC cause. They've made their profit on the original sale to the Malaysian School Project anyway - and by the way, what's wrong with a transferrable "warranty" if the machines are new.I agree with you Grant, but do the "powers that be" at Psion follow through that kind of logical thought process?

Sorry, I guess I'm just in cynical mode, at the moment. :(

Julie

[markdeppe]

As I understand it, one of the reasons Psion failed in the PDA market is that there was not a huge profit margin in the manufaturing of hardware - combineed with many new competitors etc. -, and the money lay on software and the ability to sell the platform for other devices like mobile phones. I would imagine that potentially here could be a boon in these sales for psion if they were to look on it as an oportunity to develop and sell highly profitale software. It could be a win win situation with the end user benifiting also through enhanced software we would be prepared to pay for (though many of the psion apps are very complete there are enhancements many people would appreciate).