cfQue satellite acquisition problem.

[Bokkie]

Screenshot.

Left to right:

1. The settings screen show I have enable the application launch when I insert the cfque in the cf slot. I have elected to disable the GPS mode as well.

2. Is my front screen. The cfque is not inserted in the cf slot at this point.

3. I insert the cfque in the cf slot. The Garmin app 'sees' the insertion and opens the application, as expected.

4. I enable the GPS manually and it switched from "Off' to "Acquiring..."

5. I removed the cfque from the cf slot. The application immediately displays "No GPS Connected."

All of this proves the application is capable of seeing the cfque insertion and it is sensitive to its removal.

Question: after 40 minutes outside the software has not detected a single satellite and I have a clear view of the sky. Anyone know why or what else I can try?

I suppose it is possible the cfque has a fault and I need to rma it, but I'd like to think if the software can see it, there is no reason why it should fail to acquire the satellites?

[apersson850]

But it thinks it's at Garmin's headquarter, in Olathe.
Unless you are too, you ought to set it to New Location - Automatic (or whatever it's called on this platform).

Rather common that you have to do that, when it for some reason has gone back to its home fjord.
Probably pining. Norwegian blue.

[Bokkie]

Anders, it thinks I'm at hq only because of the rma I had to go through and that I had to reload all the apps - hence everything is back at the factory settings. This is the first fix I've tried to attain since rma. Even when I got the cfque I had a full fix within 15 minutes or so. I tried again this afternoon, and after an hour there was not a single satellite recorded which makes me think it is completely snafu'ed?

[apersson850]

Did you follow the expert's advice and do that New Location - Automatic?
I had to do the same with this 3600a I'm testing, since it had been used in Kansas City before. Totally blind here, before I did the new location trick.

[JMckie]

Doesn't sound good. Sounds identical to a certain internal antenna "feature" on the early iQues. I wonder if this will manifest in the M5s as well.

I think your upcomng GPS10 would fare a lot better.

[Curious Cat]

Did you get back the same HP as the one you sent in? I'm asking only because the cfQue might need to be set to the new unit somehow.

[Bokkie]

Guys,

I tried again but no joy either on the third attempt. I tried the new location as Anders suggested but that made no difference. I got the same unit back as the one I sent in, except the mainboard had been replaced under RMA, that is, CC, I did not get a new unit by return, unless a mainboard replacement means the same thing effectively?

I did a hard reset so I'm going to try a reload especially as I've installed some 3rd party apps since RMA and it is possible those could be killing the device in some way or other.

[Curious Cat]

Well a main board could certainly register as a different device/serial number. Does your documentation on the CF say that it can be moved from one unit to another without doing anything special?

[Bokkie]

I checked that CC, and there is nothing mentioned in particular. The RMA was done by a 3rd party contractor that HP use, so they have no direct interface with Garmin or HP except to source mainboards, batteries, that sort of thing.

I've reestablished my ActiveSync partnership and I'm installing the basemap to the cfQue at this moment, having reloaded the Garmin 2.4 applications to the PDA. Once that is done, I'll try another satellite acquisition as I will now have my PPC set to just about out-of-the-box condition with no 3rd party apps to bring it down...

[Curious Cat]

I heard that all the iQue's that were sent back for the failed antennas were recycled into cfQues. :D

[Bokkie]

I shall put that theory to the test in 5 minutes or so...

...I also heard that the failed antennas on the iQue that become failed antennas on the cfQue are recycled to the M5...

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by Curious Cat
I heard that all the iQue's that were sent back for the failed antennas were recycled into cfQues. :D

Reasonably good news CC, Anders, et al. Following the hard reset and reload from scratch, I took Bettina outside (cold as it is in barefoot, shorts, and t-shirt!) and she started to acquite some birds. Not enough to change allegiance from Olathe to Crawley, but enough sats showed up and vanished to show she is seeing something. Tomorrow when it is warmer (?) I'll see what the old girl is capable of doing.

[JMckie]

I was about to suggest trying with your Gillson but realized no connector.

Perhaps you should put on some clothes before testing. Perhaps your new Bettina is bashful about performing. :)

[apersson850]

Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun, but it's perhaps your South African ancestry that forces you out in the cold, instead??? :D

[nparker13]

Originally posted by Bokkie
Reasonably good news CC, Anders, et al. Following the hard reset and reload from scratch, I took Bettina outside (cold as it is in barefoot, shorts, and t-shirt!) and she started to acquite some birds. Not enough to change allegiance from Olathe to Crawley, but enough sats showed up and vanished to show she is seeing something. Tomorrow when it is warmer (?) I'll see what the old girl is capable of doing.

Speaking about a cold start...i thought the temp really did have to do with the acq of sats.

I could just see someone on the production line thinking "hmm should i make this one work, or do my buddies in rma need more work"

-nate

[nparker13]

PS would a re radiating antenna help? maybe you can test one out at a store near you (i dont know where they would have them...maybe like a boat store or something) to see if it is the gps hardware or otherwise.

-nate

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by apersson850
Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun, but it's perhaps your South African ancestry that forces you out in the cold, instead??? :D

Old habits die hard. I prefer 27ºC when I can get it, but I forgot that there is a big difference between 27ºC and 27ºF. Just as soon as I have warm clothes on, I will see if Bettina is up for the job this morning.

Anders, I never knew you were a scholar of Noel Coward's song lyrics as well!

[Bokkie]

I think she is dying on me. After an hour outside, she never successfully acquired a fix. A few sats came into view but those were quickly lost again and most of the time, the sat bars were quiet. I did a comparison with my iQue and it acquired a lock in about 8-10 minutes (I have not used it in about 2 months or more) from the same position so I don't think there is a line-of-sight issue here.

I have a letter ready to send to Garmin when I RMA the cfQue or at least let them have a try for me. Before I do that, does anyone have any last minute thoughts? I'm dreading the RMA as it makes 100% track record of all Garmin devices I've ever owned (admittedly only 2 of them!) and I hope the name Bokkie is not known to them, for that increases the RMA cycle by an extra 4 weeks, at least.:(

[Curious Cat]

Originally posted by Bokkie
I'm dreading the RMA as it makes 100% track record of all Garmin devices I've ever owned (admittedly only 2 of them!) and I hope the name Bokkie is not known to them, for that increases the RMA cycle by an extra 4 weeks, at least.:(

Just to be fair to Garmin, you also just sent your HP PPC back for an RMA because you wore out your reset button.....:)

I think a Bokkie can FunBob most anything if he tries hard enough.:D

[Bokkie]

Funbob. Where is he now? He gave the forum one of it's great verbs. Nobody can out-funbob a funbob.:D

[OWG]

As I incorrectly posted to the other thread where you made reference to the problem, I am going to re-post here, where I shall not be beaten for straying the topic.

Have you ever seen your screen look like this? My cfQue does this on occasion and I am thinking it has something to do with the BT radio causing the cfQue some grief. It acquires sats but just stacks them up on the N or the W or right smack dab in the middle. After enough time....up to 45 mins once, it "came back to life".

Do you use the BT functionality?

[JMckie]

Have you tried shaking the GPS to dislodge all of those satellites stacked in one location? :)

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by OWG
As I incorrectly posted to the other thread where you made reference to the problem, I am going to re-post here, where I shall not be beaten for straying the topic.

Have you ever seen your screen look like this? My cfQue does this on occasion and I am thinking it has something to do with the BT radio causing the cfQue some grief. It acquires sats but just stacks them up on the N or the W or right smack dab in the middle. After enough time....up to 45 mins once, it "came back to life".

Do you use the BT functionality?

Ratty,

the screenshot you showed could almost have been taken directly from mine. I noticed several sats on the display at the bottom, but like yours, only 1 was shown at the top, bang on 12 o'clock or maybe they were all stacked on top of each other. Like Joseph suggests, maybe I need to shake the cfQue to dislodge them.

No matter what I try, I cannot get a fix under any circumstance. Yesterday afternoon, I had no fix after 1 hour of sustained connection. I don't have BT enabled or active.

[apersson850]

Satellites shown due north, at the horizon, indicates that they've been identified by the correlator, are being listened to, but no almanac data has been downloaded yet. Thus the receiver doesn't know where on the sky to place them.
Correlation of the PRN code is the primary thing. That comes first, to be able to listen to any satellite at all. When that's accomplished, reception of data, overlayed on the carrier and timing information, can commence.
However, almanac data for ordinary sats (not valid for WAAS/Egnos) is transmitted by all sats, for all sats, so it's sufficient to have reception from one of them, for a while, to get almanac data for all. Assuming things do work as intended, of course.

[Bokkie]

I sent an email to Garmin, complaining about the unncessarily long time I spent on the phone waiting to speak to someone, and after 30 minutes I had nothing but a tinny playback of some Beatles music (yuecccch!). Phoned twice, got through to no one so the email will probably end up in the same place as well.:rolleyes:

I do envy you guys in the US with your excellent service from Garmin.

[JMckie]

Last time I called Garmin in Olathe, I waited for 45 minutes. The grass isn't always greener.

[apersson850]

Originally posted by Bokkie
...nothing but a tinny playback of some Beatles music (yuecccch!)... Had they only played something else, and he would have been a happy customer!!

Makes me wonder if they entertain your emails as well, by playing Beatles for them??

[OWG]

Originally posted by apersson850
Satellites shown due north, at the horizon, indicates that they've been identified by the correlator, are being listened to, but no almanac data has been downloaded yet. Thus the receiver doesn't know where on the sky to place them.
Correlation of the PRN code is the primary thing. That comes first, to be able to listen to any satellite at all. When that's accomplished, reception of data, overlayed on the carrier and timing information, can commence.
However, almanac data for ordinary sats (not valid for WAAS/Egnos) is transmitted by all sats, for all sats, so it's sufficient to have reception from one of them, for a while, to get almanac data for all. Assuming things do work as intended, of course.

Thanks Anders. I was thinking something along those lines was happening. It happened again today on the way into work. I never did acquire. It seems that if it does not get the good almanac data by the time it rotates through the entire range of satellites it will clear, reset and start over. I think the solution is to sit in one spot long enough to receive the data. Also, the only other thing I can think of for the loss of the data to begin with is the Garmin app is always running in the background, even while indoors, so it is always in a futile attempt to acquire sats that are not there.

[OWG]

Originally posted by JMckie
Have you tried shaking the GPS to dislodge all of those satellites stacked in one location? :)

"Stop shaking your eyes!!!"

*Note: you may only get that if you live in Canada ;)

[apersson850]

I don't know about the cfQue, but in the iQue, this almanac data is stored in NonVol RAM (also known as flash memory). If you have NonVolUtil, you can see that there's a {P}SDM Satellite Almanac Data record.
Delete that, and you'll get exactly the same problem as you have, but if everything works, it will heal by itself, as satellites are found and almanac data being downloaded (literally speaking) from above.

It's not leaking, maybe? Did you check your rug, to see if there were some lost almanac bits?
You know, in the digital world, it's very important that the bits (those called 1's) have square corners. If not, then they slowly transform into zeroes, since they have very round corners. As anyone can imagine, ones being transformed to zeroes like this, will cause the most well engineered device to malfunction.

Now where did I place that bottle....??

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by OWG
"Stop shaking your eyes!!!"

*Note: you may only get that if you live in Canada ;)

Rat-fizzog,

how did you do your screenshot of the GPS screen? I just went outdoors to the other side of the house and I get exactly the same problem there. I'm using Pocket Controller, perhaps you are as well?

If so, I can hardly run back indoors and put the pda into the cradle and do the screenshot from the desktop for by that time the GPS screen will have cleared itself indoors.

I want to do a screenshot outside using the pda alone. Is it possible? Pocket Controller lets you screenshot connected to the cradle but I want to do that disconnected.

I spent a lot of time trying to get through to Garmin today, too much time in fact, and never once did I get through to anyone. It really does piss me off major league that they run a telephone service as crap as that.

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by apersson850
I don't know about the cfQue, but in the iQue, this almanac data is stored in NonVol RAM (also known as flash memory). If you have NonVolUtil, you can see that there's a {P}SDM Satellite Almanac Data record...

Anders, I don't know what they do on the ppc. Maybe I need to get a registry viewer and see if theyy have anything in there that I can wipe clean.

[OWG]

Originally posted by Bokkie
Rat-fizzog,

how did you do your screenshot of the GPS screen? I just went outdoors to the other side of the house and I get exactly the same problem there. I'm using Pocket Controller, perhaps you are as well?

If so, I can hardly run back indoors and put the pda into the cradle and do the screenshot from the desktop for by that time the GPS screen will have cleared itself indoors.

I want to do a screenshot outside using the pda alone. Is it possible? Pocket Controller lets you screenshot connected to the cradle but I want to do that disconnected.

I spent a lot of time trying to get through to Garmin today, too much time in fact, and never once did I get through to anyone. It really does piss me off major league that they run a telephone service as crap as that.

Bokkie, I use Magic SS (http://www.freewareppc.com/graphics/magicss.shtml) . Although very friendly, I find that the support people at Garmin usually do not have a lot of knowledge. I would love to be able to get in touch with someone in development on some of these issues. I would be willing to run debug tools, whatever, to help determine what could be causing this or any other problem.

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by OWG
Bokkie, I use Magic SS (http://www.freewareppc.com/graphics/magicss.shtml) . Although very friendly, I find that the support people at Garmin usually do not have a lot of knowledge. I would love to be able to get in touch with someone in development on some of these issues. I would be willing to run debug tools, whatever, to help determine what could be causing this or any other problem.

Thanks, OWG, I appreciate the support as this is a really frustrating problem. All I want from them is an RMA number for it is a perilous step trodden who sends anything to that company unsolicited and undocumented.

I'll look for MagicSS and try. It's a pitr Pocket Controller does not do this though I posted to the iPaq forum, so maybe AnswerDude will know a way.

BTW, is MagicSS a freebie, and can you give me a quick crash course on how to configure it and what you do to capture the screenshot.

As an update, the sat acq I did about 30 minutes ago, showed 1, 11, 3, 20 and no sat number was displayed anywhere except directly on top of "N" on the compass.

[apersson850]

Bokkie, have you looked straight up lately? Is there some big, shiny disc, hoovering over your location? Small green men, leaning out of quartz windows, with cunning and devious plans for beaming up some interesting creature from that funny planet below them?

Could be they are blocking the GPS signals!!

[OWG]

Originally posted by Bokkie
Thanks, OWG, I appreciate the support as this is a really frustrating problem. All I want from them is an RMA number for it is a perilous step trodden who sends anything to that company unsolicited and undocumented.

I'll look for MagicSS and try. It's a pitr Pocket Controller does not do this though I posted to the iPaq forum, so maybe AnswerDude will know a way.

BTW, is MagicSS a freebie, and can you give me a quick crash course on how to configure it and what you do to capture the screenshot.

As an update, the sat acq I did about 30 minutes ago, showed 1, 11, 3, 20 and no sat number was displayed anywhere except directly on top of "N" on the compass.

That link I put for Magic SS isn't adver-spam. Click it and it will take you to the D/L page. It is freeware. To use simply assign one of your buttons to MagicSS. It will save a .bmp in memory (default is capture.bmp). I just browse over to the folder and copy and paste after that.

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by apersson850
Bokkie, have you looked straight up lately? Is there some big, shiny disc, hoovering over your location? Small green men, leaning out of quartz windows, with cunning and devious plans for beaming up some interesting creature from that funny planet below them?

Could be they are blocking the GPS signals!!

And that is the Anders Persson Interface (API) guide to good GPS'ing. Blame it on the Aliens. As long as Sigourney Weaver is up there as well, I don't mind what colour they are.;) :D

OWG: thanks for the sensible reply. I'm beginning to think those Swedes are spending too much time in the long dark winter and it is getting to them/he/it.:D

[OWG]

Originally posted by Bokkie
And that is the Anders Persson Interface (API) guide to good GPS'ing. Blame it on the Aliens. As long as Sigourney Weaver is up there as well, I don't mind what colour they are.;) :D

OWG: thanks for the sensible reply. I'm beginning to think those Swedes are spending too much time in the long dark winter and it is getting to them/he/it.:D

Well it is the "silly season" isn't it?

[Bokkie]

Aye, laddie, a very silly season it is too. I got MagicSS working and apart from the rather naff way of naming files (Screenshot5 does it much better) it works well enough. If I can get through to Garmin I'll send the screenshots, not that they will be too bothered if the telephone service is anything to go by.:mad:

[OWG]

I've sent them screen shots in the past with regards to this problem. Unfortunately, unless it gets to the right person, I don't think it makes much difference. Maybe you should send it to Anders, and see if he has any special contact he can get it to. ;)

That is, when he is not so silly (during daylight hours). :D

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by OWG
I've sent them screen shots in the past with regards to this problem. Unfortunately, unless it gets to the right person, I don't think it makes much difference. Maybe you should send it to Anders, and see if he has any special contact he can get it to. ;)

That is, when he is not so silly (during daylight hours). :D

That's the problem, hoping the right person gets to see it. As for Anders, the long nights have pickled his brain. Thankfully, we can rely on Jonas and the other Swedes to maintain sanity until the sun comes around, and Anders gets his mental waves back in tune again. I think he spends too much time in his cellar drinking bottles of suds.

I'll certainly send my screenshots to Garmin but who knows what the outcome will be. Ithink I will have to do what I tried last time when I rma'd the ique - that is, phone sales and get them to transfer. Funny thing is the sales lines are always open, eh?

[stevevo]

Originally posted by JMckie
Doesn't sound good. Sounds identical to a certain internal antenna "feature" on the early iQues. I wonder if this will manifest in the M5s as well.

I think your upcomng GPS10 would fare a lot better.

This is not something new to the ique as I have had mine back 12 times now and is still having trouble with the antenna issue. It quit again and it is only 5 months since the last RMA. I hope they can pinpoint the problem as this is the only serious problem I have encountered in the 3600. I don't know if the 3600a is better or not.:rolleyes:

[apersson850]

I've only had one antenna problem.
I don't know if there's any difference in the 3600a. At least the antenna has worked for a week now! ;)

[Bokkie]

Originally posted by apersson850
I've only had one antenna problem.
I don't know if there's any difference in the 3600a. At least the antenna has worked for a week now! ;)

So that makes it 6 days overdue for RMA, then?

[Bokkie]

Screenshot attached.

I tried once more this morning and this time it succeeded. The instant I switched it on the first sats displayed as in the first image. Within a minute or two it finally succeeded in for the first time in 48 hours to get a 3d fix. Right now it's working.

But seriously guys, is this the end of the problem or is the cfQue clearly unfit for the purpose for which it was bought, seeing that OWG had exactly the same problem? I really don't think 48hrs is acceptable and I cannot spend every waking minute outside in the hope it will acquire, so I am naturally irritated by this. I just don't know if I should be shaking a heavy stick at Garmin.

It seems I have to live with it, for again, after spending a fair bit of time on the phone to Garmin, I cannot hold on the line not knowing when I'll get through or at least knowing where I am in the queue. Did Garmin reply to my email. Yeah, right!:rolleyes:

[JMckie]

System bugs don't fix themselves. I've often encountered odd bugs in systems that I work on. There is a natural tendency to dismiss them as one-time, difficult to recreate, unlikely to happen again kind of bugs. They always come back.

Regardless, a reradiating antenna seems to be a good investment for the cfQue. At the very least you can check for signals while in your pyjamas. :)

[apersson850]

Occasionally, I've seen the same kind of problems, with various GPS units. But there's always been a way to clear the almanac data, and that has always helped.
Seems that some bogus data can sometimes be sampled, and then interfere with the proper operation of the unit.
I did notice, in your screenshots, that the elevation was wrong too. That can also cause problems, but normally not when it's not more off the correct value than we can see in your pictures.

If it can work sometimes, and it seems it can, I still doubt that there is something wrong with the hardware.
The iQue is better prepared to handle problems of this kind, of course, with NonVolUtil being able to clear out possible problems in that part of memory, and the jog-wheel reset available to clear global Garmin-specific data from RAM. Usually, some of these actions do remedy even the more difficult lockups and hickups.

See, Bokkie, you got a sensible reply from the crazy Swede, for a change!

Svårt fall, doktorn grät, as we say in Sweden.

[jonasolof]

My verdict on the M5, cfQue so far: Seems to be good in theory, not so performing in practice. No wonder to me, the not so proud owner of an Ipaq 5450.


The iQue is not so good in theory, i.e. it doesn't have so many bells and whistles. But it works in practice.

[apersson850]

But you haven't tried neither M5 nor cfQue, Jonas? Or have you?
I'm asking, since most people, maybe with the exception of the exceptional Bokkie, don't have both things.

[Bokkie]

It's on my recommendation that I get the funding for these devices, and it's to my eternal chagrin that I have to apologise for doing so. Maybe the GPS 10 will do better?

[OWG]

Originally posted by jonasolof
My verdict on the M5, cfQue so far: Seems to be good in theory, not so performing in practice. No wonder to me, the not so proud owner of an Ipaq 5450.


The iQue is not so good in theory, i.e. it doesn't have so many bells and whistles. But it works in practice.

To be honest, I had more problems with my iQues than I have had with the cfQue/iPaq combination. My only one is this issue with the data being reset. I am not pursuing it that hard as I am waiting on the GPS 10. If it exists there, at least we know it is a Que software problem as opposed to a hardware issue. I would then go after Garmin to correct the "undocumented feature" a little harder. M5 issues are understandable as it took 3 releases to get it right on the iQue. Give it some time.