Hospitals where are they?

[jcgc50]

Ok, I am a very new user and I will first assume user error. Playing with the Q today and used the quefind to look for emergency services and then hospitals at my current location.

We have three hospitals in my city. None of them showed up. In fact the closest was 150 miles away which bypasses many more between here and there.

Searched by name and it could not find any of our local hospitals. A friend has the Garmin 2610. He had commented last week that he had done the same thing with the same result.

Since this could be an important function would like for it to be accurate. Any suggestions on what I might be doing wrong?

[apersson850]

Where are you?
Which map are you using?
Do you have the correct map loaded, for your area?
Can you find these hospitals on the map, if you look at it on the PC, using Mapsource?

It simply could be that there's an error in the map data, especially if somebody else, with a different GPS, but with similar maps (although he's likely to have CN, not CS, if it's in a StreetPilot) have the same experience.

[Ken in Regina]

It seems to depend upon the map product you are using. I checked my maps in Mapsource on my PC, just out of curiousity.

Mapguide Canada v4 shows the hospitals in my city with the correct symbol (blue cross on white background) and shows the hospital correct names when I hover the cursor over the symbols.

When I use "Find" in Mapsource, I select "Emergency & Government" category, "Hospitals" subcategory, with the correct city and province in the search fields. When I hit "Find" it finds them all.

However, City Select North America v6, which is the more recently released product does not show any of them. They are not shown on the map and Find won't get you anything.

(Just for completeness) Topo Canada v2 also does not show the hospitals. But that's not a feature I would expect on a topo map.

**EDIT: I just discovered something interesting (to me, anyway). For completeness I figured I should test on the iQue rather than simply assume that it would work the same as Mapsource on the PC.

It doesn't, at least not exactly (and I'm not refering to the "Find" interface, which is obviously a little different).

I have tiles from both Mapguide Canada v4 and City Select North America v6 loaded on my SD card. I can enable/disable either one. So I tested with Mapguide Canada enabled, with the expected results. The hospitals are clearly marked on the maps and when I did the Find for "Emergency & Government", "Hospitals", "Near Current Location", it found them all.

Then I enabled CS North America v6. Again, as expected, the hospitals were not marked on the map. But when I did the same find as with Mapguide v4 enables, I got identical results .. it found them all!

I suppose that must be an artifact of having both sets of tiles loaded .. the Points Of Interest (POI) file must be an aggregation of the POIs of both mapsets. Does anyone know this for sure?

...ken...

[apersson850]

It seems different, what's on the maps, or rather in these POI doatabases, from area to area as well as from one map product to another.

In Europe, there are no ATM on the City Select maps, for example. But on my old MetroGuide USA, there are many.

Things that aren't on the map will not be found by the iQue, of course.

[jcgc50]

Originally posted by apersson850
Where are you?
Which map are you using?
Do you have the correct map loaded, for your area?
Can you find these hospitals on the map, if you look at it on the PC, using Mapsource?

I am using the americas basemap with detailed maps for my state and a few other states. So I assume I have the correct maps loaded. It routes me to local addresses. I could find local restaurants with no problem.

I took a look at the maps on the PC and no hospitals are showing. All sorts of other local businesses are there but no maps and neither of the two large shopping malls are there either.

My friend that I referred to lives about 50 miles from me and he has local hospitals in his city but again it listed hospitals.

I installed detailed maps. Is there something that I am missing on installation.

[jcgc50]

Originally posted by jcgc50
I am using the americas basemap with detailed maps for my state and a few other states. So I assume I have the correct maps loaded. It routes me to local addresses. I could find local restaurants with no problem.

I took a look at the maps on the PC and no hospitals are showing. All sorts of other local businesses are there but no hospitals and neither of the two large shopping malls are there either.

My friend that I referred to lives about 50 miles from me and he has local hospitals in his city but again it listed hospitals 100 miles away and no local hospital.

I installed detailed maps. Is there something that I am missing on installation.

Sorry I seem to be messing up my text. Corrected my last entry above.

[Ken in Regina]

Anders, and Jim, Please scroll back to my last message and check the edit that I added. Thanks.

Jim, did you note that in my city I get the hospitals with Mapguide Canada but not with City Select North America. I assume since you mentioned "states" that you are probably using City Select North America, so your results are probably not unusual. Not very desirable, but not entirely unexpected.

[jcgc50]

Is there a way to view the maps other than through the palm desktop software? When I check the program folder in all programs it appears to only have an icon for installation and a couple of unlock icons.

[Ken in Regina]

Originally posted by jcgc50
Is there a way to view the maps other than through the palm desktop software? When I check the program folder in all programs it appears to only have an icon for installation and a couple of unlock icons.

Yes. I use a Garmin program called Mapsource (not to be confused with some of their map products that are also referred to as "mapsource").

If you go to this page and scroll w-a-y down to the bottom you will see the download for the Mapsource v6.5 program. It's free to use with your Garmin maps.

http://www.garmin.com/support/download.jsp#programs

[Q-Eye]

I have only the CS6 maps for AZ and CA loaded along with the world basemap. My QueFind results for hospitals near current location show quite a few hospitals from 3.5 to 300 miles away. Don't know why yours are not showing.

I tried experimenting with the amount of detail in preferences but it didn't make any difference. QueFind finds them all.

[apersson850]

The enabling/disabling of map tiles, as well as the level of details, setting zoom levels for certain types of data etc. affects only what the map looks like.

It has no impact whatsoever on which items Find will locate. Find always looks at the entire selected map (there's something you can change, when searching by name, if you open the options menu when in the search dialogue).

The question about viewing the maps has already been answered.

[jcgc50]

Playing around with the find function. No problem with local shopping, restaurants attractions. However, most all of the emergency and government searches directs me to Louisiana some 150 miles away as the closest location.

There were a couple of subheadings that found local services but not much. No local police for example but local fire departments were there.

[apersson850]

Well, that's what's on your map. Complain to Navteq.

[jcgc50]

Originally posted by apersson850
Well, that's what's on your map. Complain to Navteq.

Thanks Anders, How do I communicate with Navteq?

Of course having lived here for years I will know where the local hospitals are when I have my heart attack. Although it might be hard to drive and use the Q at the same time.

Hopefully it will find them when I am out of town.

[reinbeau]

Actually, Anders, I had the same problem with hospitals here in Boston....somewhat well known, as in Mass General, St. Elizabeth's, Childrens' Hospital, etc. You'd think they'd be easier to find, it may be somewhat of an emergency when you're trying to route to them :eek: Navteq may be the problem, but it's something they really ought to fix.

[GPSter]

Hospitals are listed in my POIs for Florida, including most of the ones in my city. Using CS5.

[jcgc50]

I posted this as an error at Garmin today and they have already responded. Impressive customer service.

While I might wish it were a better answer, it is an answer and maybe an alternative search method offered but haven't tried it.

Here it is:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin.

Our detailed data vendor for this product is NavTeq. In many larger metro
areas, they drive the roads and truth them, and the detail in these places
is usually very good. (I am saying this for a reason...please don't give up
on me).

In "other" places, the maps are put together in other ways. Still, this is
the best data vendor overall in the market, which is why we use them...they
are overall the best...the premium vendor.

NavTeq only provides "hospitals" in the cities/areas they have driven. For
instance, in my home state of Missouri, you see hospitals in Kansas City,
St. Louis, and Branson. But in other places you won't find that
classification.

NavTeq only includes hospitals when they are truly sure of their location.
In the "non physically driven NavTeq areas," the POIs (because the maps are
put together in other ways) are more prone to error. You can imagine the
problems if someone having chest pains were to drive to the wrong location
based upon an incorrectly located hospital point. We want people in such a
situation to call 911. We would suggest 911 no matter what, but it is a
huge concern especially for the non-driven areas.

But there are medical facilities (even hospitals) for these "other" areas in
the maps (I have attached a PC find for one). But they are not classified
as hospitals. If you look under SERVICES/PERSONAL SERVICES, you should find
these (at least some)."

[jcgc50]

Tested Garmin's recommendation. Searching under services and personal. Then searching for names containing Hosp pulled up all the local hospitals.

[apersson850]

As I've said all the time: You got to get acquainted with your unit, to use it properly.
Seems like a good way to do it, according to my opinion. List verified hospitals as hospitals, and the non-verified ones as something else. Then they are there, if you have a blue toe, but in case of a black heart, look for a verified source for the position.

[Statsman]

Originally posted by reinbeau
Actually, Anders, I had the same problem with hospitals here in Boston....somewhat well known, as in Mass General, St. Elizabeth's, Childrens' Hospital, etc. You'd think they'd be easier to find, it may be somewhat of an emergency when you're trying to route to them :eek: Navteq may be the problem, but it's something they really ought to fix.

Hello Ann,

I tried to locate hospitals in Boston and had no problem finding Mass General, St. Elizabeth's, Childrens' Hospital, and many others. In fact, it found 34 hospitals within 10 miles of Logan Intl.

Have you checked lately?

Statsman

[Ken in Regina]

Thanks for posting the reply from Garmin, Jim. I guess I will have to email them now, to find out why the hospitals in my city show up on Mapguide Canada v4 but not on CS North America v6, even though CSNA v6 appears to be the more recent product.

If Garmin's explanation about hospitals being verified by a "drive-by" is true, it puzzles me why they would show up in the Mapguide product and disappear again in the, apparently newer, CS product if the underlying data is coming from Navteq for both. The hospitals definitely didn't move in the interim. Curious...

[jcgc50]

Ken, please let us know what Garmin has to say.

[apersson850]

There's nothing that says they can't have changed their policy since last time, is there?

[Ken in Regina]

Originally posted by jcgc50
Ken, please let us know what Garmin has to say.

Jim,
I got a response and I posted it here. (http://www.pdastreet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=262956#post262956)

...ken...

[jpezz]

Originally posted by jcgc50
I posted this as an error at Garmin today and they have already responded. Impressive customer service.

While I might wish it were a better answer, it is an answer and maybe an alternative search method offered but haven't tried it.

Here it is:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin.

<portion deleted>

But there are medical facilities (even hospitals) for these "other" areas in
the maps (I have attached a PC find for one). But they are not classified
as hospitals. If you look under SERVICES/PERSONAL SERVICES, you should find
these (at least some)."

I discovered this on my own when looking for the VA hospital in Augusta (see my posing on Amtrak trip and IQUE). I consider this to be a brain-dead feature. I didn't have an emergency but it would have been nice to find it. I was in downtown Augusta and looked for the VA Hospital. I eventually found the VA Medical Center under SERVICES and followed the directions. By the time I got there and figured out this was a huge complex but not the real hospital I wanted, the guard gave me directions - back almost to where I was when I started! Not only can't you count on not finding hospitals but since I have had my IQUE, I have discovered that other government listings such as libraries also are not complete. Could it be that such facilities change hands so often that the mapmakers can't keep up with them? :-)

John

[apersson850]

Maybe the authorities feed Navteq with this data, and then the data is of the same quality as everything else the government does? :p

That's at least what happened near where I live. I reported some errors to Navteq. They contacted the surveyors at the local county office, and where promptly told that the street, on which I drive several times a week, doesn't exist!

[jdcnpr]

I travel to hospitals all over the US and Canada. Over the years, I have found that Microsoft Streets and Trips, Delorme Street Atlas, and now IQue (Navtech/MapSource) all do a poor job of showing hospitals as points of interest.

I expect that the difference in the accuracy and coverage of hospitals vs, for example, Burger Kings, is that there is no central authority that could send Navtech a data file of hospitals and address information in the way that Burger King Incorporated can.

Of course, the VHA (Voluntary Hospital Association), the JCAHO (Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Hospitals), HCFA (US Health Care Finance Administration) etc all have data files of hospitals and addresses, but none would prepare a nice list and send it to NavTech for convenient processing into POI data.

In a way, you would not want them to, because they might have an address for Mass General Hospital which corresponds to a corporate location some distance from the main or ER entrance.

My method when looking for a hospital is to find the hospital web site, then poke around to the "directions" or "contact us" page to find a street address that corresponds to the place I need to go at that facility, then find it by address.

Of course, each facility could try to get info to Navtech, but there is no on-line mechanism by which Navtech could be sure that the information is authoritative. That is probably where the "drive and see it" rule comes from.

[jpezz]

Originally posted by jdcnpr
I travel to hospitals all over the US and Canada. Over the years, I have found that Microsoft Streets and Trips, Delorme Street Atlas, and now IQue (Navtech/MapSource) all do a poor job of showing hospitals as points of interest.

I expect that the difference in the accuracy and coverage of hospitals vs, for example, Burger Kings, is that there is no central authority that could send Navtech a data file of hospitals and address information in the way that Burger King Incorporated can.


That wouldn't explain why local (i.e. non-chain) restaurants, motels, churches and other points of interest are shown but major hospital complexes are left out.


Of course, the VHA (Voluntary Hospital Association), the JCAHO (Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Hospitals), HCFA (US Health Care Finance Administration) etc all have data files of hospitals and addresses, but none would prepare a nice list and send it to NavTech for convenient processing into POI data.


They must use some other source than centralized databases to find the local Bubba BBQ!


In a way, you would not want them to, because they might have an address for Mass General Hospital which corresponds to a corporate location some distance from the main or ER entrance.


There ought to be a way to avoid that. And it doesn't explain why some hospitals are listed as "SERVICES/PERSONAL SERVICES" instead of Hospitals.


My method when looking for a hospital is to find the hospital web site, then poke around to the "directions" or "contact us" page to find a street address that corresponds to the place I need to go at that facility, then find it by address.


Only works whent you're by a computer. Not all of us have internet access while driving. And if I did, I could use MapQuest to give me directions and save myself the cost of an IQUE.


Of course, each facility could try to get info to Navtech, but there is no on-line mechanism by which Navtech could be sure that the information is authoritative. That is probably where the "drive and see it" rule comes from.

Don't expect them to be perfect but when it comes to hospitals, they are downright poor. Especially considering that unlike restaurants that come and go and motels that change hands, hospitals generally tend to stay in one place and keep their name.

JohnP

[jdcnpr]

Just presenting my theory on why hospital coverage is poor in various mapping databases. And, I have found that you have the best coverage of chains of various sorts (restaurant, hotel, etc) vs independent establishments. Hence my pure guess that NavTec gets POI files from the bigger entities who have an incentive to get listed.

Not saying that is a good thing. It is an issue for me if I do not plan ahead when I travel to a hospital.

I do not have web access in car. I just have found that checking the street address via web search (from home) is a pretty good way to get the street address of a hospital.

[OWG]

Originally posted by jdcnpr
Just presenting my theory on why hospital coverage is poor in various mapping databases. And, I have found that you have the best coverage of chains of various sorts (restaurant, hotel, etc) vs independent establishments. Hence my pure guess that NavTec gets POI files from the bigger entities who have an incentive to get listed.

Not saying that is a good thing. It is an issue for me if I do not plan ahead when I travel to a hospital.

I do not have web access in car. I just have found that checking the street address via web search (from home) is a pretty good way to get the street address of a hospital.

I think the response from Garmin was the right one though. If an entity (Navteq in this case) cannot physically verify the existence of the hospital, they don't list it as such. Makes complete sense. Especially in the frivilous lawsuit capitol of the world. Heck, I'm surprised they aren't more careful of the Burger King placements. It wouldn't be surprising to hear of Jones vs Navteq. Suing for damages related to hunger due to a missed lunch by way of wrong navigational directions.


BtW, Hi everybody! Hope you're all doing well! :)

[jpezz]

Originally posted by OWG
Suing for damages related to hunger due to a missed lunch by way of wrong navigational directions.

Actually, they'd probably sue because they DID find it and ate too much and got too fat.

[OWG]

Originally posted by jpezz
Actually, they'd probably sue because they DID find it and ate too much and got too fat.

You are absolutely right....my mistake! :D

[apersson850]

Yes, and if they do find that Burger King, they'll sue for damages incurred by fat food.

Americans...

OOPS! While I was writing, more people realized the same thing!

[OWG]

Originally posted by apersson850
Yes, and if they do find that Burger King, they'll sue for damages incurred by fat food.

Americans...

OOPS! While I was writing, more people realized the same thing!

LOL, it just goes to show what the perception is, doesn't it? :D

[donc13]

Originally posted by jpezz
That wouldn't explain why local (i.e. non-chain) restaurants, motels, churches and other points of interest are shown but major hospital complexes are left out.



They must use some other source than centralized databases to find the local Bubba BBQ!



There ought to be a way to avoid that. And it doesn't explain why some hospitals are listed as "SERVICES/PERSONAL SERVICES" instead of Hospitals.



Only works whent you're by a computer. Not all of us have internet access while driving. And if I did, I could use MapQuest to give me directions and save myself the cost of an IQUE.



Don't expect them to be perfect but when it comes to hospitals, they are downright poor. Especially considering that unlike restaurants that come and go and motels that change hands, hospitals generally tend to stay in one place and keep their name.

JohnP

For what it's worth...to find Hospitals, I select in QFind, All points of Interest and then sub-select (the right hand drop down) for emergency and Gov. and then on the left side, select "near current location" (otherwise you get them in alphabetical order from the whole US it seems!). Then enter "Hos" as the search criteria and find them quickly.

Don

[COD]

Originally posted by jcgc50

We have three hospitals in my city. None of them showed up. In fact the closest was 150 miles away which bypasses many more between here and there.

Any suggestions on what I might be doing wrong?

This is a database mapping bug. I discovered the same problem and my only solution was to search "All Points of Interest" containing the word "hospital". If you will notice the icons that are shown in the results are simple points of interest icons and not hospital icons. That is the bug.

Cute bug.