Tao Intent JVM

[hammera]

I have just seen that Tao-group have announced that their Intent JVM is available for the Netpad. Does anyone know if it is going to be made available for the Netbook?

Psion Teklogix adds Java technology features to its netpad® (http://tao-group.com/news_events/new_press_releases/press_release.php?RefNo=90)

[diem]

Having just checked at the Teklogix Partner Program, I find that this new JVM is only available as part of the latest netPad OS release :(

I'll see if I can find anything out, but I wouldn't hold your breath on this appearing for netBook.

Having read the press release, the following contact is given for further information:

liza.loughman@psion.com

Perhaps a few emails asking for Intent for netBook are warranted? I know I just sent one ;)

[hammera]

I have had some feedback from Tao regarding a NetBook implementation of their Intent JVM. Unfortunately it does'nt look too promising at the moment but there is a glimmer of hope in the below message



From: Graham Nice [SMTP:nice@tao-group.com]
Sent: 03 December 2002 11:41
To: Hammerton, Adam
Subject: RE: Intent

Hi Adam,

We have concluded our agreement with Psion with respect to the NetPad product and now intent is available as part of the standard deployed product.

Although we have done some evaluation work on the NetBook, there are no solid plans today to make this available either as a runtime directly from Tao or as part of a standard deployed product from Psion.
However if there is significant interest in the NetBook community
then I am sure Psion and Tao would look favourably to seeing
if this could be provided. As is usual such activities are driven by
commercial opportunities and so if you are aware of demands for such a product I would be interested to hear about it and pass onto Psion.
Would you mind if I passed your email (edited if you would like) onto my contacts at Psion as your comments are valuable and add weight to the justification for getting onto the NetBook?

Thanks and regards,
Graham.

Graham Nice
Strategic Marketing Director - Tao Group Ltd.




I take from the above that if we can generate enough interest we may get what looks like a valuable addition to our netBooks, so what are you waiting for, get mailing.

Adam

[hammera]

More info on the Tao JVM, this time from Psion.

Hello Adam,

Thanks for your interest; Tao's JVM does currently work on the netBook, but will require an additional 32MB upgrade DIMM module to operate efficiently.
This does not currently come as standard on the netBook but we may offer this solution to our corporate customers should it be required.

Liza

--------------------------------------
Liza Loughman
Corporate Communications Europe
tel +44 1235 443030
email liza.loughman@psion.com
www.psionteklogix.com



So if you have the extra DIMM fitted, the Tao JVM will run and give our Netbooks a much needed Java boost. All we need now is Psion/Tao to release it. So if you haven't already, and even if you have, get mailing and show them that we really want this.


Adam

[diem]

I got the very same reply to my initial enquiry. I've mailed back asking how to get hold of the Intent JVM...

[harveyr]

Hi All

Okay...okay. Stop the emails!

I am aware of your desire to have the TAO JVM running on the netBook, and as Liza says it does work. That unfortunately does not meant that I can immediately release it to the world.

There are certain processes we have to go through prior to this happening. Netpad is different as it comes as part of the OS. This will not happen on netBook due to the memory requirement, therefore, a way of distributing the software under license has to be concluded. This will not be a free 'giveaway' I'm afraid. There will be a cost associated with it.

Please bear with me, I hope to have something ready in January. There are a lot of things going on at present and we have very little time to go until year end!

Thanks all

Harvey
netBook Product Manager

[diem]

Harvey, you're a star :cool:

[hammera]

Harvey,
I second that with an add on - you're a superstar, if for nothing else than keeping us informed.
Looks like I get double presents this year, a nice new JVM after Christmas :) (hopefully, don't want to count my chickens) and a new netBook (which I've just been told will be here next week) before :D. What more could I want? (No answers on a postcard please)

Adam

[dukibean]

Don't forget the EPOC VPN client as a stocking filler ;)

[harveyr]

Hey, now come on! ;) VPN as well!!

[dukibean]

Santa told me it would be a worthy addition to his stash :D

[Davidish]

Someone please enlighten me: does this all mean we might soon be able to view/hear realaudio and realvideo streams on the netbook?

Isee that the Tao Intent JVM is a J2ME engine and supposedly supports fast multimedia, rendering, etc... but what does this mean to the average punter out there? After installing it what will we be able to do that we couldn't do before? Will Opera run faster (or is the JVM not connected to Opera's built-in JVM?)

An explanation from any of you wise beings would be much appreciated.

Humbly,
David.

[diem]

What this JVM gives us that we don't already have is support for 'Java 2' (Java 1.2 and upwards). Many Java applications these days rely on features only present in Java 2, thus this will massively increase the amount of applications available to us.

Since the Intent JVM is 'accelerated', it should also improve the performance of existing Java programs and applets on web pages. The cost will be that it needs more available RAM.

[Davidish]

Thanks for your reply Yan.

Another query: can you give me examples of useful applications that rely on Java 2 that will become useable with Tao Intent JVM? Is there a multimedia player out there for Java? realaudio or MPEG 4 player? What else? Where can these applications be found on the web?

BTW, I presume the Java implementation of Yahoo messenger might work better with the new JVM too... hallelujah!

David.

[diem]

Originally posted by Davidish
can you give me examples of useful applications that rely on Java 2 that will become useable with Tao Intent JVM?

Not off the top of my head - the lack of Java2 support has meant that I've never had to look before now! As a Java programmer, my main interest in this JVM is writing my own programs.

[harveyr]

Originally posted by dukibean
Santa told me it would be a worthy addition to his stash :D
Ho Ho Ho.

Unfortunately, Santa just told me that he's giving me 2 weeks off over Christmas and New Year so there won't be any netBook stocking fillers until 2003!!

H ;)

[dukibean]

Unfortunately, Santa just told me that he's giving me 2 weeks off over Christmas and New Year so there won't be any netBook stocking fillers until 2003!! H ;)



That's incredibly diligent of you taking leave to source and licence a VPN client that isn't on the netBook roadmap. Top Bloke! ;)

[cshandley]

Originally posted by harveyr

I am aware of your desire to have the TAO JVM running on the netBook, and as
Liza says it does work. That unfortunately does not meant that I can
immediately release it to the world.

There are certain processes we have to go through prior to this happening.
Netpad is different as it comes as part of the OS. This will not happen on
netBook due to the memory requirement, therefore, a way of distributing the
software under license has to be concluded. This will not be a free 'giveaway'
I'm afraid. There will be a cost associated with it.

Please bear with me, I hope to have something ready in January. There are a lot
of things going on at present and we have very little time to go until year end!

Thanks all

Harvey
netBook Product Manager


So has anything happened? I would love to have the Intent JVM (even pay money
for it!) as it is supposed to be *very* quick - Java programs could be seriously
used, meaning many more programs usable on the Netbook :-)))

---
Chris Handley

[wanman]

Certainly has gone quiet? Does anyone know if Harvey came back to work after his holiday? lol Perhaps they are far too busy, developing their netBook2.

Si

[pliskens]

I tried contacting the TAO-group but they have no information concerning psion's intention for releasing intent for the netbook. Does anyone have info on intent for the netbook?

[amitchell]

Given the fact that the JVM needs so much RAM and the fact that Java programs usually aren't that memory efficient, has anyone considered one of the 'cut down' JVMs for EPOC? We could have a J2ME or SuperWaba implementation. The advantage here would be that it would run on *all* EPOC devices...

Austin.

[pliskens]

Perhaps someone is interested in performing a port?

[cshandley]

Austin,

Originally posted by amitchell
Given the fact that the JVM needs so much RAM and the fact that Java programs
usually aren't that memory efficient, has anyone considered one of the 'cut
down' JVMs for EPOC?


AFAIK, the Tao Intent JVM is supposed to have a *very* small memory footprint,
possibly as little as 2Mb, although I forget the exact details.

It is also supposed to be very fast due to the fact that it dynamically compiles
individual class methods (and other reasons too, like they implemented many
classes in (binary portable) assembler).


In fact, I'd like Tao's Intent full stop, as it is a promising binary portable
platform, and their JVM is just the most popular program available for Intent.

BTW, I know for a fact that Intent has been demonstrated running on a Psion 7 (or Netbook) a year or two ago...

Regards,
Chris Handley

[Crazed_Monkfish]

Personally such a jvm would be a godsend for me - currently non of the java apps I'm writing / have written work on the netbook - and I sorely wish they would.... (a javac implementation would be nice as well :lol: )

[amitchell]

It can be done; have a look here for instructions:

http://www.foxpop.ndirect.co.uk/Java/java_cover.htm

Austin.

[cshandley]

Originally posted by amitchell
It can be done; have a look here for instructions:
Austin.

While I can only speak for myself, I know Java is available for Psions, but (a) it is *damn* slow, and (b) it does NOT run Java2 stuff.

The mentioned JVM would definitely help the first problem a great deal, and the second one might be solved (I'm not sure).

---
Chris Handley

[365]

This is my first post so firstly, hello everyone. I've just sold a Palm Tungsten and ordered a Malaysian NetBook, mainly to do some networked Java development.

I'm interested in knowing if there is any progress on the Tao Intent JVM, I have sent a PM to Harvey but wondered if anyone else has any news.

I'm also in the market for a UK personality module if anyone is selling one ;) I don't know what the going rate is but I'm a realist so don't be shy :)

[diem]

well welcome to you!

top marks on making the jump to a Psion. No news on the Tao JVM yet, but 'confidence is high' as they say ;)

I'm desparate for it too - as you probably know the Psion JM is Java 1.1.5 :(

[VernonA]

1) The port of the Tao JVM to the netBook has basically been done and is available, apart from one issue. Tao make their money by licensing the intent platform to OEMs, and are not geared up for charging to individuals. They expect Psion to manage the distribution of the SIS file, and expect us to track how many people download it (so we can pay them accordingly). Unfortunately there is no easy way to ensure that the SIS file does not get shared around, as copy-protection is not trivial. The discussions on this issue are currently at an impasse, and I don't know when a compromise will be reached. Until then the SIS file is kept well guarded!

2) The Tao JVM implements Personal Java 1.2, which, to a good approximation, is Java 1.1.8. It is certainly not Java 2, as some are suggesting. It runs quicker than the Symbian 1.1.4 JVM, and has hardly any missing APIs, so is much better at running Java 1 apps. Developing for it is easy enough, and you can realistically write and compile Java code on the netBook itself (try IDEs like JE by Rene Grothmann or JPE).

There are still a few bugs in the JVM to be ironed-out, and you do need the 32Mb upgrade in order to run it, but otherwise it works well.

3) Note that because of the way intent is written (as on O/S on which the JVM runs), it cannot be used for running applets in browsers. Therefore we will continue to ship the Symbian JVM in the OS.IMG, as it is needed by Opera and Web for running Java stuff.

Hope this clarifies things.

Vernon Attew
Snr S/W Engineer
Psion Teklogix

[diem]

Thankyou VERY much for the clarification Vernon. It is extremely heartening to know that the tao JVM for netBook is more or less finished.

Obviously as end users we are powerless to help, so all I can say is fingers crossed that the distribution licensing issues are resolved.

Perhaps as Tao's intent media platform takes off they will feel rich enough not to have to charge for it ;)

[wanman]

Based on my limited understanding of this. I assume that this jvm will not work with Opera or offer any additional functionality but will allow better compatibility with standalone java applications ?

[cshandley]

What's stopping the JVM from requiring a code which is specific to the UID of each Psion? The user would then need to email his UID, so that he could recieve a valid code.

The code check could be implemented in three ways:

1. During installation the SIS could run a little program which asks for the code, which it then stores in a file for the JVM to verify each time it is run. This requires modifing the Psion-specific launcher for the JVM.

2. During installation the SIS could run a little program which asks for the code, which it then verifies & stores success/failure in the Psion's registry. The JVM then need only check for the presence of a registry entry.

3. During installation the SIS could run a little program which asks for the code, and it could abort installation if the code was incorrect. This is less safe, but prevents casual copying, does not require the JVM to be modified, and is easy to implement.


What surprises me is that I have not seen "solution 3" implemented before.

Regards,
Chris Handley

[pliskens]

Thanks a lot Vernon for giving some more information on Tao for the Netbook. Can you also shine some ligth if and when Tao migth become available for our standard netbook?

[Craggy]

The problem is the size of the JVM. If both the standard OS and the Intent JVM are installed you will have very little RAM left (if any) on an un-upgraded netbook.

If the SIS is released then you will be able to try, but will probably not have enough memory left to run it too.

Intent only works on the netpads with larger memory too, but they were lucky in this respect as the netpad had to be given more memory to run bloaty Windoze CE anyway. :mad:

[cshandley]

Originally posted by Craggy
The problem is the size of the JVM. If both the standard OS and the Intent JVM are installed you will have very little RAM left (if any) on an un-upgraded netbook.

If the SIS is released then you will be able to try, but will probably not have enough memory left to run it too.


I can understand this might limit the market a bit, but the people most likely to want the Tao/Intent JVM are those who have upgraded their machines anyway. I have!

Do your comments apply even if the JVM is installed on Compact Flash? Everyone has one of these...

Since Intent was supposed to have a VERY compact memory footprint (2MB??), I am rather surprised it uses a lot of memory.

Perhaps people with a memory-upgraded Series7 or Netbook should form a petition? This would indicate minimum likely sales.

Regards,
Chris Handley

[Craggy]

The problem with installing onto compact flash is that you are then removing one of the reasons for having the new JVM... its speed.

To be honest I can't remember if it is possible to install onto another drive anyway.

It's been a while now, but I'm sure that the Intent JVM was larger than 2MB, although I could be wrong. Or it may be that libraries required to support it also consume a large amout of memory.

Unfortunately it seems that something has overwitten my memories of working on this :rolleyes:

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by Craggy
Unfortunately it seems that something has overwitten my memories of working on this :rolleyes: Errrm.... wouldn't be anything to do with that pint of beer, would it? ;)

Sorry, Craig, jk - couldn't resist!

Julie

[alfaloco]

Hi,

Does anyone know what has happened to this???

[Stargazer]

1) The port of the Tao JVM to the netBook has basically been done and is available, apart from one issue....Until then the SIS file is kept well guarded!Apologies for the thread resurrection but given that a few years have passed and virtually all commercial developers seem to have moved on, is there any possibility of anyone with access to this SIS file of passing it on to Pscience5 or another Psion software site?

[osg]

Stargazer,

I sent request to PT teknet (software request form) today, where I asked to make Tao JVM available. I don't believe that it would help, be we have nothing to loose. :)

[Stargazer]

Thanks for the update - I hope someone there is able to give a positive reply.

[osg]

We are close! But due to my ignorance I couldn't find it...
See email from PT:


Hi Jan!

I think I might have found something for you =D
If you register on Psion Teklogix Teknet:

http://www.psionteklogix.com/TekNet

You can find the recommended releases and the archive for the NetBook.
I suggest getting the latest Recommended release.

There were not few problems implementing TAO in NetBook but this release has it and
was updated.

Hope this helps =D

[Stargazer]

I've registered and had a look at Teklogix's site, but the closest thing to a Tao JVM I could find was that included within the Netpad OS (http://www.psionteklogix.com/teknet/pdk/netpad-pdk/epoc_downloads.htm) .img file. I've filled in a request to Teklogix so maybe that will help.

[osg]

Please don't send more requests to PT! I will update this thread soon, cos I am in contact with PT people.

[Jonas]

Oh damn, that's exciting, I'm in hope...

[osg]

Hello all,

in the meantime, I played with the netPad version of the Tao JVM. I exported all necessary files to disk and loaded it to netBook. It is ~nearly~ working See screenshots.

You can see, that it failed to work due to missing CacheLdd.ldd device driver. Unfortunately - it is device driver, thus tightly connected with netPad hardware. We need to figure out, what happens in this device driver to make it running. Anyone here knows the answer?

But even if we'd sucseed with this device driver, it's still not sure that it will work... There might be further issues due to HW and OS differences.

[Jonas]

Any news here?

[osg]

Cool down. Still in discussion.

[Jonas]

That's all I wanted to hear, I believe in your discussion skills :-)

[osg]

Hello forum members. I did my best. I contacted PT and Tao.

I found very friendly guy at PT support, after some communication he sent me following info:


Contacted people who about TAO on NetBook and this is what they replied:

------------
We never officially released the Intent JVM for our netBook product range.
In fact we never came to a (licensing) agreement with TAO.
------------


I asked PT support for further help, even to contact with Vernon Attew or Harwey R.. Unfortunately, I got quite official answer:


I am afraid without any licensing on the JVM there is nothing I or Psion Teklogix can
do.

On top of that it is now quite some time we no longer manufacture EPOC or Psion
products anymore, so support for this is restricted only in repairing the NetBooks.

Afraid TAO JVM never made it to the NetBook.


That's all we can do probably. It is very unlikely to hack netPad version, but I encourage anyone who wants to try.

[Stargazer]

Well thanks for trying. The thing is that according to Harveyr's posts earlier in this thread there was an .sis file for TAO on NetBook so the only issue should be licensing. If so, the option of whether to release or not should rest solely with TAO...

[osg]

I was in contact with Technical account manager from Tao, he replied:

The license between PT and Tao simply lapsed in 2003 because PT did not
wished to renew it when moving away from EPOC based platforms. I would
be happy to consider further licensing with PT, however even if the JVM
was to be made available without charge there would be costs that it
would be difficult for PT or Tao to justify.


Well, this is finally clear explaination why it was not released so far. Just in case that PT would like to release JVM now, I gave contact of this guy to PT. I think that it's clear for everybody that the probability is below low level. PT is not supporting EPOC machines anymore, so I don't expect that they would bother with it anymore. It wouldn't add any value.

In order to clarify the ownership of the implementation, here's another quote from Tao:


I would really like to help, but I have found that the intent JVM was
originally taken by PT who integrated it with their platforms. As a
result I don‘t even have the final working release version.

Sadly, I think this thread is closed now.

[pokepoc]

Many thanks to Osg for deep investigations about TAO JVM for netBook.
PS: Not all story must have happyend.

[gelleal]

Not all story must have happyend.
The other one was AntiWord story? :confused: