Psion's view on the EBay Netbooks

[GaryTheHat]

Hi All, I have been in contact with Psion regarding these Ebay netbooks and have received an answer which I think all who have purchased will find quite interesting.

Dear Gary,

I have been making some enquiries with Psion Teklogix about this situation. Your netBook does indeed require a special version of the Operating System in order to work again. Without it, this machine will not do very much more than what we have seen thus far.

As discusssed, this machine was intended for (and only intended) for an educational project in Malysia. As such, that machine should NOT have left its native environment. Quite how it came to be sold to you in the way that it did is a mystery really. I personally think that you have been purposely misled. If I was in the same position and I could...I would return the machine to whence it came and retrieve your money. Make no mistake, this is NOT a generic netBook. If other people have this problem as you so eloquently put it...then perhaps they have been misled also. We did build several thousand of these machines for this purpose.

It deeply saddens me that such things are going on out there, but this is the world we live in.

Despite the fact that the operating system is special and not intended for the consumer market at all, I have asked Teklogix to come back to me and give me an official line to take on this. I am waiting to see what the decision is and as soon as I know, will come back to you and advise.

Thank you for your patience and I shall contact you soon.

Best Regards,

Robert Godfrey


Technical Support Consultant,
Psion Digital Ltd.

I have found that my netbook seems to work ok at the moment, but what worries me is that I think Psion will not honour any warrenty at all. As far as Teklogix view is we will have to wait and see. But from this e-mail I am not happy as I feel I have wasted nearly £500 on what I could have bought for £200 ie a series 7.

Gary

[netBookBabe]

Gary

Hmmm, very interesting. As I've already said, I totally agree that you were misled in this matter.

Sounds like you got your machine working now? Do you still want that copy of the older OS from me? I'm not sure whether you received my e-mails about that.

Julie

[GaryTheHat]

Hi Julie, I sent one this morning, but it was about 6.30am so I might have naffed it up. I will still try it please if poss, Psion say it won't work but you never know, I'll try to contact you on msn asap.

Cheers Gary

[GaryTheHat]

Finally had the response I need from Psion, and it's not good news. We should not have been able to buy these machines at all, and Psion want to investigate the source. There reply is as follows;

Dear Gary,

It appears that I have not made myself clear to you on this.

What I am implying is that this machine should NOT be in consumer hands, AT ALL. For all that I know, it may have been taken from a school in Malysia and imported back here. It is was built with an intended purpose in mind. You need the special OS to make it work. It cannot be re-programmed to take on the guise of a standard netBook. They were made this way on purpose.

If you feel cheated then Psion is not the direction to be looking toward, I'm afraid. You should have bought a generic netBook from known dealers in the UK really.

"Standard" netBooks can run the operating system (Release 158) and certain Wireless cards can indeed be used. But NOT with yours as it stands.

As for warranty ?
That belongs to the machines "intended" owners, I suspect. I doubt that warranty is transferable in this case. Do you have a proof of purchase from a known dealer of Psion products ? I thought you said you bought it from eBay !

It might help if you told me where this came from exactly as there is clearly something dodgy going on out there. Perhaps some investigation into this matter is required to clear the air. Do you have the details to hand and then I can pass them on ?

May I say once more, these machines were NOT sold to consumers, it was indeed for educational establishments. They were not intended to exist outside that field.

My line of enquiry is simply this. Can I or can I not give the special operating system to someone other than the schools this was intended for ? That is what I am waiting on. It might not be possible.

Best Regards,

Robert Godfrey

Technical Support Consultant,
Psion Digital Ltd.

Well thats the last straw for me i'M DEMANDING A COMPLETE REFUND

[WolfUK]

Gary,

This is bad news indeed and I hope that Psion do get to the bottom of it and find out how these netBooks got into the hands of the Ebay seller. It may be that they are being sold legitimately in which case Psion might well try to provide a modified bootloader and perhaps even a guarantee.

It may be worth emailing Ebay themselves (both in the UK and the US) and send them a copy of the email sent to you by Psion since they may want to suspend the sale of these netBooks until this matter is cleared up. It won't help you but if it stops someone else from being conned by this guy then all the better.

[Stefano]

Hi,
I'm one of the lucky auction winners of those peculiar netbooks from ezgallery. I'd like to ask Gary in what exactly the OS system in these netbooks differs from those bought from official retailers, and what have you done to repair it (if I understand correctly you have got a hold of a specially adapted OS).
Thank you,
Stefano

P.S.: And what is the latest news on warranty?

[GaryTheHat]

Hi Stefano, The netbooks we bought were specially built for a education project in Malyasia. They have a unique OS inside them. They cannot be upgraded or use any other OS Psion bring out. Mine seems to work ok at the moment, but the reason I bought a netbook was to be able to take advantage of the OS upgrades. Psion say the warrenty issue is in the hands of the original vendor and doubt if it could be extended to the new owners, EZgallery have changed this on there site to 1 month only. I feel I have been conned other buyers may be happy with what they bought.

[netBookBabe]

Gary

Interesting comments from daredevil regarding wireless LAN towards the bottom of this thread:

http://www.pdastreet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=21796#post21796

You may have already seen it.

Julie

[Calbrit]

Well, I'm keeping mine. If new "official" Netbooks sold at around the price I paid for my EBAY item, then I doubt whether we would have this situation, but they do not.

Price was the major reason for buying one here in the first place. If Psion can offer a fix (by the way, in my opinion, they owe loyal Psion users "big time" for abandoning us on the retail front!) so much the better.

At the end of the day, I doubt the seller will receive the goods back for a refund (including shipping?) anyway, but you never know. I also can't see what Psion can do about him selling these on EBAY unless they were originally stolen which would then require a criminal investigation in Malaysia (not sure how guilty it makes his customers like me who bought in good faith!). The seller is a "close out" merchant who buys excess stock at a bulk purchase rate and sells off individual units accordingly. There are many many companies that do this in all product areas - especially on sites such as EBAY.

However, having said all this I will complain to EBAY which may ultimately help others in some way. I have already left a "negative" comment against the sellers details ((bestdealbiz on the US EBAY site) but could not find a link to make a direct complaint to the powers that be on EBAY. So if anyone has this, please let me know.

Grant

[Calbrit]

I forgot to mention - the customer service rep. at Psion sounds a bit mis guided. These Netbooks do have release 158 and actually do have the guise of a standard netBook apart from the "One Ed" wallpaper which I've replaced with "Intel not Inside" :)


Grant

[netBookBabe]

Originally posted by Calbrit
These Netbooks do have release 158 ...This seems to be in accord with what daredevil was saying (see the link in my previous post) so it would appear that wireless connectivity should be possible after all.

Small crumb of comfort?

Julie

[Calbrit]

Well, I'm not at the wireless LAN stage yet (maybe in the new year) so if/when that time comes it will be useful and significant crumb!

Grant

[dushaw]

I've just bought one of the e-bay netbooks, that apparently is one of the Maylasian netbooks for which the OS cannot be upgraded. I have therefore been following the e-mails on this carefully...(today anyways) My netbook has not arrived yet, but I've posted an inquiry to the seller.

I wonder if it may be possible to upgrade manually to the latest OS? That is:
1) boot off the original OS.img file
2) have someone with a pristine, upgraded OS from a generic netbook make a backup of their system, and post this somewhere.
3) unpack this updated system OS manually onto the Malaysian netbook (e.g., using pkzip)

Is there any evidence at all that the hardware is any different on these educational netbooks than on the generic netbooks?

Does someone know how to actually obtain a replacement ROM chip? The "personality module", apparently? Is this a matter of calling psion/teklogix?

Thx!
B.D.
:confused:
(I had to test out one of the smilies.... :) )

[netBookBabe]

With regard to upgrading the netBook manually, I wouldn't have thought this would be possible, but I will leave that to those who are investigating the problem in depth.

As for the "personality modules", I'm afraid it looks like the source of these has dried up. They were not sold by Psion themselves - the main two sources were Expansys and POS Ltd. Expansys are showing them as discontinued, and a personal enquiry I made to POS earlier this week as to whether they expected more stock was met with a categorical "no".

Whether Teklogix would accede to such a request, I cannot say.

Sorry it's not better news :(

Julie

[Calbrit]

Hi Dushaw, I tried booting straight off the new image file but with zero success (see other thread on problems with new OS). Using the existing OS then unzipping the new is unlikely to work either as all OS installation instructions I've seen require a hard reset (i.e both batterries to be removed).

Let us know when your Netbook arrives.

Grant

[Braveheart]

I stumbled on this thread by accident after buying two of the Psion Netbooks from EZ Gallery on Ebay. At first I was really pleased with my purchase. But then I, like everyone else found that no matter how I tried I could not load the latest ROM image........ well you live and learn but given that I got two netbooks for hundreds less than one new one so I don't think I have done so badly.

I do find Psion's approach amazing. I mean how does one seriously expect to deliver 8,000 PDA units to a particular part of the world and just expect them to stay in the one location?? Have these guys never heard of global and secondary markets? I do understand Psion seeking to exonerate themselves from responsibility for warranty lclaims and I have some sympathy with that but their somewhat unfriendly way of dealing with the situation leaves me cold. I think a few lessons on customer focus would not go amiss but sadly it is a little late for their PDA's. I can only say it is a great shame that Psion's technology did not enjoy the business flair to match their undoubted engineering prowess.

Right enough of that. I have had my two Netbooks down to POS in London and they say they cannot upgrade them to a normal Netbook standard. POS state that the software has blown in such a way as to preclude the loading of any other o/s. They said they tried to "mask" the o/s input but it still didn't work. Now I think POS are the bees knees. They have worked miracles with other Psions I have sent for repair so if they say the Malaysian Netbook cannot be upgraded I am more than half inclined to believe them because these guys know what they are doing. BUT I can also say that there was mention of Psion having instructed or advised them not to mess about with the ROM chips. So it may be that Psion have been leaning on third party repairers to stop a flood of Malaysian Netbooks into the UK which could then be upgraded to full Netbook standard for say an extra £150.00.

I don't have all the answers but I do have a spare ROM chip which I had bought to upgrade my Psion 7 (before Psion put the word out on ROM chips) so if it is considered that there is an evens chance a ROM chip replacement might work I'll give it a go and post the results.

If anyone has found a solution meanwhile I would be more than grateful to hear it

With kindest regards,

Dave

[fladda]

Installing a standard Netbook 'personality' module into one of the Malaysian Netbooks, should almost certainly allow you to load the latest Netbook operating systems into a Malaysian Netbook.

Not tried this, as I don't have a Malaysian Netbook. However, my understanding is that its the boot loader software in ROM that is different between a Malaysian Netbook and a standard Netbook. Boot ROM resides on the plug-in operating system card/personality module, and NOT on the Netbook motherboard.

Ralph

[Braveheart]

Ralph

Thank you for your quick reply. Just for my benefit do you think or are you saying that the "personality module" will be contained in the plug-in chip set that I bought as a Netbook upgrade for my Psion 7??

As far as I know this is just the enhanced 190mhz processor and a bit of memory.....

With kindest regards,

Dave

[Braveheart]

I have now tried the Psion 7 to Netbook upgrade chip P/No 2031 0037 01 version 011 date 03/04/01 and I can confirm that it does not work with either the latest ROM image or the Malaysian ROM image. Replacing the Malaysian chipset and booting from the Malaysian ROM image on CF restores the machine to normal. I guess we are stuck with the existing o/s, so long as I can work it on a LAN (my own at home) I'll be happy but ISDN functionality would have been a big bonus.

I guess this also means the Psion "blockage" is not in the Bootloader either - that is if my understanding is correct and the Bootloader is located in chipset 2031 0037 01 version 011

Oh well. If anybody does have a fix or a workaround please let me know.

With kindest regards,

Dave

[diem]

This is new information - the part no. matches my 'standard' netBook personality module in all but date- shame its so discouraging. :(

Like you say, it suggests that the hobbling has been done somewhere on the motherboard - they really didn't want anyone messing with them eh? :mad:

[dushaw]

One thing to double check on this discouraging news - I could not get ANY OS.img to boot up my Mnetbook using a Kingston 16 MB disk I had. Even though once booted up, the Psion had no problems accessing it.

Did you try booting up with the alternate OS.img using the original compactflash - or one that is known to work?

So many parameters, so little time....

B.D.

[Braveheart]

Yes indeed this is a good point. I did try the original Malaysian CF card (64k digimaster) and also two different CF cards I had prepared with the latest netbook ROM image. One was a 64k digimaster and the other was a 128k "simple" CF card. None worked.

The result was no beep when battery re-inserted and just a white screen (ie no annoying one-ed school book screen) which could not be switched off. The result was the same with all three CF cards. The machine did not boot after a few minutes so I assume it wasn't going to.

As you say I guess the only other possible unknown is whether the ROM images I have prepared myself are in fact working correctly. This is something I am think that I have done properly but ideally to remove all doubt I could do with a known to be working CF netbook image on CF preferably the latest one.

If someone is able to send me one I would pay postage cost to me and send it back by Royal Mail Special Delivery? Or exchange with a blank CF?

With kindest regards,

Dave

[GaryTheHat]

Hi All, Just been reading the threads regarding the upgrades. I have a EZ Gallery Netbook and was a little upset when I found out the situation with them.
I managed to buy a S7/Netbook upgrade module from Ebay and everything works ok. The new OS booted up ok and everything works and looks as per a netbook. I shall post the numbers off the chip in the next day or so to see if they differ.


Regards Gary

[netBookBabe]

Interesting (and good news) to hear that the netBook "personality module" upgrade worked for Gary. :)

Dave, I would definitely try with a CF known to work if somebody can provide one. I actually had the same problem as you (blank screen, no response) when trying to install the latest OS on my born-and-bred netBook. Fortunately for me, I was able to try with the disk of a netBook-owning friend, and it worked straight away. The theory was that my OS.IMG file could have become fragmented because I didn't put it on a blank formatted disk - I didn't have a spare one at the time, and although I did put it in the root directory, there were some other files on the disk.

I do now have a separate CF containing only the OS, but it's not tested (I didn't feel like doing another hard reset just to find out!) so I'm sorry I can't be of help to you on that score. I hope you can find one from somewhere to try.

Julie

[Beakynet]

Originally posted by Braveheart
The result was no beep when battery re-inserted and just a white screen (ie no annoying one-ed school book screen) which could not be switched off. The result was the same with all three CF cards. The machine did not boot after a few minutes so I assume it wasn't going to.


Interesting! Sometime ago I repaired a friends Series 7 and acidently turned it on without the "personality module" and was met by the same response as you discribing with the module in the MBook. Are the contacts on the modules the same? Have you tested the Standard "personality module"? Is it possible that this doesn't work in a Series 7? Also, an interesting experiment would be the MBook "personality module" in a Series 7....

[Braveheart]

Julie, Gary, et al thank you very much for your posts and advice. I have tried the netbook chip upgrade procedure on my other netbook tonight using a rom image on a brand new CF card I bought and formatted at lunchtime. No luck yet I am afraid but I am taking heart from Gary's success and Julie's advice about the CF card problems on a real live Netbook so to speak.

I'll persevere. Meanwhile has anyone noticed that while EZ Gallery has stopped selling the Malaysian Netbooks on Ebay he continues to discreetly offer them for sale at around £500 to £600 from memory via Expansys. Intriguing. I bet he would sell more cheaply if approached direct.

But the doors are definately shut at POS for new Psion 7 to Netbook upgrade chips and when I called Clove they expressed a view that some of the Psion 7 to Netbook upgrade chips didn't work although they stressed they had not tried it themselves............

I'll post again when I have some success.

With kindest regards,

Dave

[markdeppe]

This facinating. Dave I am happy to send you a CF with a working latest OS which boots my netbook - email me direct see PM settings.

Julie et al. I have booted my netbook off various CF with loads of other files and directories on the CF. Currently I have a copy of the os.img in the root directory of a 256MB cf which is permenantly in the D: drive with all my other files and backup of C: and it still boots up the netbook fine.

Have you tried the mbook personality module in a series 7 or other netbook, that sounded an interesting suggestion.

Geat to hear it works for Gary. Are you sure Dave that your new personality module is not defective (can you try it in a 7), or maybe not pushed in right (no insult intended there, but it happens - and under the right cover not inserted in the DIMM upgrade slot).

[Braveheart]

Mark et al,

To try and cover all the points I confirm the MNetbook personality chip works in a Psion 7 and that the Psion 7 personality chip works in the MNetbook.

The location point for the personality chip is indeed under the right hand cover just under the screen. I have not tried the left hand side one because I understand that slot is for memory.

Correct insertion. These are a bit like the old computer memory chips and I have now had plenty of practice both on computers and these Psions. They do actually locate quite positively. I genuinely do not think insertion is the problem. The other thing I would say is that all work has been carried out with me personally physically plugged into the mains earth via a bracelet on my wrist to avoid danger of static damage.

After all this it is only the Psion 7 Netbook upgrade chip from POS that does not work in either the Psion 7 or the MNetbook. Unfortunately I do not have a real live Netbook to try the chip in but I think on the face of it we have enough evidence to point the finger of blame firmly at the POS upgrade chipset. You do not get the normal beep on insertion of the battery. Just the white screen which stays on until the battery runs out or you pull the battery out and remove the chip (in either the Psion 7 or the MNetbook). This is not the case with the Psion7 chipset or the MNetbook chipset. They beep and boot on insertion of the battery every time in either machine.

So.............I am now pretty convinced that I have a chipset problem rather than a CF - o/s problem. So thank you for the very kind offer of your o/s Mark but I think it would be a waste of time because the Netbook upgrade chipset does not boot on insertion of the battery in any machine.

I contacted POS today who are normally very good but their first reaction to my having given them £80 for a useless chipset was not very inspiring to be honest. Maybe they will come clean but I am not feeling very hopeful about that just now.

Clove's comments of earlier this week are still ringing in my ears..........."we understand these chips don't work but we have never tried them ourselves....................." I wonder if there was more than the normal failure or DOA problems with this chipset? I wonder if this maybe contributed to its rapid withdrawal from the market?

I am lapsing into speculation. Thank you all very much indeed for your positive support and advice and guidance. It has been really helpful to have several brains covering the angles and point me in the right direction. I'll work with what I have for now and if I see a Netbook chip on ebay I'll try and snap it up.

With kindest regards,

Dave

[Beakynet]

I am sorry that my suspision has turned out to be true. The tests I suggested were designed to prove that.

Sorry, I hope you have some luck with POS.

David

[markdeppe]

Sorry to hear the news Dave. I trust POS will come through for you, as they have a good reputation in the Psion community. Your speculations around the upgrade chip are interesting but from what has been posted so far on them it does not seem likely that their quality was responsible for their withdrawal (see threads elsewhere, sorry don't have the link for it).

What I am curious about, and hope someone technical can shed some light on is how different are the personality modules to the memory upgrade modules. As in would it be possible to buy the 32MB DIMM blank memory upgrade and copy an original netbook personality module onto it (they look very different to the memory upgrade which has 4 identical looking chips whereas the personality module on the right has 2 rectangle chips the same as the ones in the memory upgrade and a square one. Looking at them I doubt it is possible and if it were someone would have mentioned it by now - not sure who said it but hope springs eternal :-).

PS I hear that these Mnetbooks come with a messy mains adapter set up. If you need a new Psion original mains adapter there seem to be some going on ebay (I do not know the seller): http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2301966421&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:UK:1

[Calbrit]

Mark, the adapter set up is only messy for US customers - You get the UK adapter, an interface adapter to connect to a 110 - 220 converter and another plug adapter to connect to the socket! It's so heavy I have to use an extension lead and lay the adaptors on their side accordingly!

On the personality module subject I definitely think Psion withdrawing these had something to do with the availablilty of the Malaysian Netbooks - they must have put 2 and 2 together and saw what potentially might happen.

I no longer give the matter much thought as my Nbook is great in every other way and I now use it as my main computer. The main benefit is that I can IR important files to my Mako or 5mx for when I don't want to cart my Nbook around.

Cheers,

Grant

[markdeppe]

Thanks for clearing that up Grant. What I meant by original psion power adapter was that they used to be 110-240 so no transformer / converter extra needed, just socket adapter.