Troublesome Revo

[snigfarp]

I'm the proud new owner of a pair of cute little Revos, a purchase from Ebay. When they first arrived, I subjected both to the same charging process: one works well and the other doesn't. I am looking for advice with regard to the troublesome one.

First, I charged the Revos up for six hours or so. As I mentioned, one of them seems to work a treat. I've been playing Cascade and other games on it (I don't want to give it a serious use until I'm sure it's properly working). After a few days' occasional use, charge is down to 63% with no problems so far.

As for the other Revo, it appeared to charge properly: red light fast charge for a while, then green light trickle charge for several more hours before the battery reached 100%. After disconnection from the external power, it lasted a couple of minutes then switched itself off. It let me switch it on a couple of times, but lasted a matter of seconds before switching itself off again. Then it appeared to crash: it switched itself off, and refused to switch on again until I gave it a soft reset.

I tried doing a hard reset and recharge, as recommended in advice elsewhere. Strangely enough it stayed on fast charge for about 8 hours (I'd left it on charge overnight). It showed the same symptoms after I unplugged it. I've tried two more recharges since then. Both times it stayed on fast charge for a reasonable amount of time before going to the trickle charge, but both times it showed the same symptoms almost immediately after being disconnected.

I've read various bits of battery advice over the past few days, but people describe different symptoms and different remedies and it's difficult to know which applies to this particular problem. I certainly can't run the batteries down fully on this machine, as some advice suggests, as it only stays on for seconds at a time, with frequent reboots necessary.

So in short, does this sound like a problem I can solve by recalibrating the battery, or do I need a battery replacement?

[snigfarp]

I tried the Revo again this morning. It switched off a couple of times after a couple of seconds' use, as before. Then finally it refused to switch on again. Soft and hard resets had no effect, so I plugged it in and then did a hard reset. Now the screen is completely black. The computer responds to On/Off keypresses and clicks when I tap the screen.

As I've been typing this, the revo is starting to play a jolly three-note chord, switch off, and then on again (still with the black screen). It's doing this repeatedly - at least the battery is getting discharged properly! Does anyone know what's the matter with the poor thing?

[snigfarp]

Here is a climactic episode in my troublesome Revo saga, in case anyone's interested. Yesterday, shortly after posting the last message, the psion stopped singing and went back to its previous black-screen behaviour. I would switch it on occasionally, tap the screen a few times, then leave it alone, and it would stay on for what seemed like a few mintues (I didn't time it).

Today, after accidentally letting the case snap shut the Revo died completely. I tried a hard reset to see if I could bring it back to some form of life. It took two attempts, but the second time I got a beep, and now the screen has come back to life again! I gritted my teeth and loaded Cascade, and the little Revo let me get through a whole game without switching off.

If any of this catalogue of strange adventures sounds familiar to anyone, please do let me know so I can have some indication of what's in store for me and my poorly Revo, and what the best course of action would be to aid its recovery.

[Colin Messer]

Yes, these stories sound all too familiar and are are symptomatic poor batteries. However some poor battery symptoms are caused by invalid setting held in RAM. Before committing to new batteries try draining the batteries as much as possible, then physically disconnecting the battery pack to ensure all memory is wiped. Then start again.

I had one Revo that had the repeated descending tones. Repeated resets didn't fix the problem but disconnecting the battery sorted that out too.

Good luck.

[snigfarp]

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure I'm up to fiddling with the thing's innards, but it might be worth a go, especially as I have nothing to lose and I have another working Revo. And it might even be fun!

[Jake]

The fact that you could get a game of Cascade out of a machine shows at least a glimmer of hope for those batteries (but just a glimmer :( )

If I were you, the moment I get the machine to endure the robust battery drain of Cascade, I would stop playing the game and go Control/Switch On and set the Automatic Switch Off to "No."

Let the battery drain naturally. Wait until it powers itself off. Ideally, on a full charge, that would be about ten hours. Then charge again, machine off. The red light must stay on for 70+ minutes before going green. If you lost your red light charge after a couple of minutes, unplug, HARD reset, try again.

The idea is to get a long red light charge. Without that, the machine won't work properly.

Jake

[snigfarp]

Thanks, Jake.

As it happens, the "good" Revo has developed battery problems, too. I was loathe to discuss that other machine in this thread, as it would probably cause confusion talking about two different machines with similar problems, but since I've got more optimism with the "good" Revo, and I've also only got the one charger, I'll throw caution to the wind and concentrate on that machine. Since it's not "good" any more, I'll refer to it by the host name I'm going to give it when I get it working well enough for TCP/IP, and that's Otho. The other machine will be Vitellius.

Anyway, while I was having all these problems with Vitellius, Otho had taken a full charge and was apparently fine. I installed a few games on it, and played them of an evening before bed. It carried on until charge got down to 42% or thereabouts, and then it started switching off when playing sounds. I switched sound off, and Otho lasted a little while longer, finally switching off and refusing to switch on any more when it reached about 37% charge.

I put it on charge. Red light went out quickly. Not having read your advice at the time, I just pulled the plug and put it back in again. Red light came on and stayed on, but eight hours later it was still on red and the battery indicator showed 94%. I gave it the benefit of the doubt (fool!) and tried to use it on battery power; it lasted minutes. So I hard reset and tried again: battery showed 86%, red light on, but charging current was about 15mA. Hard reset again, battery showed 86% again. On the third hard reset the battery indicator went down to 66%.

I was concerned about the battery level not going down to 0% when I do a hard reset, so I decided to try and drain the battery completely. I've set Automatic Switch Off to No and have been trying to drain the batteries since yesterday. Otho stayed on for over an hour, and then I had to go out. When I came back it was off, but I've switched it on every time I've been in the room. I think it switches off after a few minutes now. Is it time for a hard reset and further recharge attempt as you suggest above, or should I keep teasing it until it refuses to switch on at all?

Having managed to get a good number of hours out of Otho, I think it better to concentrate my efforts (and the use of the charger) on that machine, and leave Vitellius for another day.

[Jake]

The general idea of this madness (and I've been lost in the same sea you are) is to determine whether it's the batteries themselves that's the problem or that the machine isn't charging them properly.

Hence, the need to drain the batteries completely and then completely charge them. But what complicates that is that the software may not allow you to do that.

From where you stand with the machines, I would start playing with hard resets (and when you do so, insert a double-pronged paperclip for more than twenty seconds).

You can also play with hard resetting the machine while it's plugged in. That can give you a different battery level reading as opposed to a hard reset without a/c power. For instance, if your machine has been drained to the point where it no longer turns on, plug it in, hard reset, and see what battery level you get.

Depending on the reading, you could unplug and continue draining OR continue charging. It's enormously frustrating, but keep remembering that it's not your fault :)

But from my similar experiences, I have to tell you that the news is not good for either machine. I hope to be wrong, obviously, and if not, batteries can be replaced (I've had about a 50% success rate with my Revos and homemade battery replacement).

You might look on ebay for the battery pack itself. Some smart wag will send the rebuilt pack, which you install by thoroughly dissecting the machine. There are two ways to screw up battery replacement--1) damaging the machine during the takeapart 2) improperly building a battery pack.

I've done both :( But I do have a functioning Mako after extensive repairs, and one that is completely dead. Were I to do it again, I guess I would go with a battery pack built by somebody else and install it myself.

Geez, good luck,
Jake

[snigfarp]

Thanks again, Jake. I answered my own question (was it time to hard reset again) early this afternoon, when Otho refused to switch on. I hard reset, without power, and the charge level showed 0%. So I plugged it in, and it seems to be doing a normal charge. It's been going for 4.5 hours now and is back on trickle charge. The battery level shows 100% which is a bad sign, but it's still charging which is a good sign.

If Otho doesn't work properly I'll send it off for repair - I've seen a repair service offered by someone on eBay UK for £12.99. Once Otho's working properly, I might well order a battery pack for Vitellius (£3.99 from the same source) and try fitting it myself. I won't be attempting to make my own battery pack.

[Jake]

No, that's not such a bad sign, the 100% level. The key to a good trickle charge is not so much the numeric percentage, but that the little battery icon continue to fill and refill itself (the icon by the date/time display, lower righthand corner).

When that stops refilling, click on the BIG battery icon, go to Usage, and see if the charge current is at >15mA. Then drain the battery slowly and naturally, and see if you can get to 3% or so before it quits.

Do you remember how long your red light charge was?

Jake

[snigfarp]

I don't remember how long the red light charge was, as I was out of the room doing things and forgot to check. But it's still trickle charging at 18mA after 15 hours, so perhaps the red light charge didn't last as long as it should have done. My current plan is to just leave the Psion on trickle charge, unless (i) I'm told that's not such a good idea, (ii) it's still charging next week, or (iii) I desperately need the socket.

[stmacy]

Hello snigfarp, I came across a website explaining how to replace a revo battery and thought I'd post it just in case you don't know about it. Good luck with your machines, btw! :)
http://www.psionflexi.co.uk/revo_opening.htm

[Jake]

If you're at 18mA, you're done charging and that's good. Trickle charging is about 32-37mA.

I would unplug, stop the auto shut-off and drain it without using it. It should give between 10-12 hours of battery power.

Then charge again, and try to keep an eye on the red light duration. There's no reason why you shouldn't crouch over your Revo in a darkened room for 90 minutes, praying softly to the Red Light Gods all the while. That's what we do :) It's called being a Revo Owner.

But seriously, your machine sounds good so far,
Jake

[snigfarp]

Excellent. I'd thought it was still charging, because the little battery animation next to the clock is still going.

I assume when letting the batteries down that I ought to keep an eye on the battery life, so I'll keep it plugged in till tomorrow morning. Tomorrow I'll switch it on and take it out with me, and check it every hour or so to see how long the batteries last.

[Jake]

That is interesting that at 18mA, you were still getting the refilling battery icon. It should've stopped filling.

Yes, go ahead and slowly, steadily drain the batteries. Then try to measure the length of red light charge upon your next a/c recharge.

What a fun weekend in store,
Jake

[snigfarp]

Thanks by the way to stmacy for a bit of information I missed the last time I checked this thread. Hopefully it won't come to battery surgery, for Otho at least.

Anyway, my brave little Revo has just switched off after 12.5 hours of exhausting battery drainage, having soldiered on until the battery was down to 0%. As its reward it will now get to gorge itself on at least eight hours worth of juicy mains power. I'll be trying to monitor red light charge, but after a long day I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to give it the attention it deserves.

[snigfarp]

Ah, after a few minutes it just shot up to 82% and the red light went off. What is one to do in such a situation? I've just unplugged the power and plugged it in again.

[Jake]

You did the right thing--an immediate replug of the a/c adaptor can sometimes do the trick.

If you're still awake, is the machine getting a proper red light charge the second time around?

Jake

[snigfarp]

Yes, it's still on red light charge now, charge current being 412 mA. My only worry is what to do if it continues on red light charge after 90 minutes.

[Jake]

At this point, you're getting the right kind of charge. Two, two-and-a-half hours of red light is okay as well--anything after that is overcharging, so you miight disconnect then and drain completely, start again.

Fingers crossed,
Jake

[snigfarp]

So it looks now like Otho is a happy Revo. What am I to expect from it now?

From various people's troubles and posts here, I assume that when it says in the manual "You can charge your Revo at any time. You do not have to wait until the battery has run down before you recharge it" isn't strictly true. But how long would I expect acceptable battery life if I were to start doing this? If the battery would work properly for a couple of months before needing recalibration, I could probably live with that - more so than having to organise my life around the Revo's battery on a day to day basis.

[Jake]

Do you have a Revo+ (16mb) or the 8mb version? Sound like the 8mb. If so, your batteries will natually drain 3%. Tack on another daily 10% for usage . So perhaps that would demande a full charge (with a battery at less that 15%) every week or so.

That's the procedure I would follow. I would not "top it off" until you've successfully and fully charged several times. I never top off even now.

As for how long you'll enjoy the current success of your battery state, that's one of the many reasons Psion stopped production. There is no rhyme or reason to it, except my personal, anecdotal believe that the battery should be fully drained/charrged every time.

Are you going to turn your attention to the recalibration of your other Revo?

Jake

[snigfarp]

Yes, that's a good idea. I've just put Vitellius on charge now. Though the battery was completely drained, and the machine wouldn't switch on, it's reading 66% battery power. Three hard resets have failed to change that. But I'll just concentrate on the length of red light charge and ignore the battery indicator.

[snigfarp]

Oh yes, to answer your other question, they are both 8mb Revos. These machines are toys to me; the only serious use I'll put them to is to test any software I write for the EPOC family to make sure it works on the Revo screen. I have been using the Netpad SDK but that's less than ideal, as it still uses Series 5 sized fonts for menus and dialogs. I couldn't really use it as a PDA as, with the battery issues, it's not as reliable or convenient as my trusty 5mx. And that's a shame, as the screen clarity and pocketability are very much superior to the 5mx.

[Jake]

I did find that once I got my battery in order, I moved away from my Series 5 to use the Mako exclusively. As you say, its mobility and screen are the assets. I use the Mako in tandem with a Jornada 720, having gone to the dark side of CE because of its networking and internet abilities. But the Mako is the PIM, with the Jornada and other CE devices merely passive devices upon synching with Outhouse.

Sketch and Comms are available for the Revo, which make it completely equal to the 5mx software package. I can also infrared GPRS with the Revo, and via xjmail, send authenticated smtp Earthlink mail. The IMAP program is a little buggy, but ultimately works with AOL, an ISP that my wife and I can not get rid of, unfortunately.

But the Revo battery is a heartbreak, there's no doubt. I just saw a Mako for sale on ebay, with the owner proudly saying that it's in perfect condition and "charges in only 1/2 hour!" Yeah, that doesn't sound like a whole lot of red light to me.

Keep us posted on the battles with the second one.

Jake

[snigfarp]

Well, Vitellius charged for two and a half hours on red light, after which there was no trickle charge (charging current 14mA). But I then drained the battery, which took over eight hours. It's back on charge now.

Otho has been working reasonably well. I've installed Sketch and Program on there via infrared. It's down to 65% battery charge now. It did switch off a couple of times at 82% when a game (Dark Horizon) was playing sounds on high volume, but has otherwise been working fine. I installed my own Senet game and played a few games of that without a problem. Maybe it's just a timid little Revo that doesn't like loud noises.

Thanks for your help so far.

[Jake]

I imagine that Otho needs to be drained and recharged several times to determine if the batteries are truly up to snuff. When you're not actively using it, IMHO, I would keep draining it (no auto shutoff) and recharging it.

Jake

[Colin Messer]

I can't improve on Jake's exemplary advise, so I'll throw in some more apps that might prove useful on a Revo.

Even running a 24MB Revo I would still run short of storage space, so I used:

zExe to compress executables
- http://www.mypsion/ru/zexe.php

nArchive for documents
- http://www.pscience5.net/LFNeuon.htm

and some web space I could download from.

Of those options I still use zExe because its operation is seamless in practice, though eventually space forced me from a Revo to a 5mx, then the lure of colour, WiFi etc took me to a netBook / Revo combination.

I've never had a mobile with a memory card, I wonder if such a device could provide additional storage?

Colin

[snigfarp]

As I have only one power supply, my Revos are in now a sort of seesaw arrangement: as one is recharging the other is running down. I plan to do this several times, as per Jake's advice, before trying to use either machine properly.

I don't think that my planned usage will need any more than the 8mb, as the main use will be testing my software on the small screen. In fact I could do that even if the batteries are clapped out, but it would be nice to be able to use the Revos for entertainment on the move once in a while. The fact that my little collection includes a 5mx, an MC218 and a 5 Classic probably means that I won't need to call upon the Revos to act as spares for serious work!

The netBook/Revo combination sounds like fun, though. I'm not in a position to afford a Series 7 or netBook for my collection at the moment, but I look forward to being able to afford one in future. The fact that they, along with the 5mx, 3mx and Organiser II LZ64, are keeping their prices on eBay is a good sign for the Psion platforms.

[Jake]

Colin, I did not know that you owned one of the elusive 24mb Revos. I'm envious. What's your daily battery drain on the 24mb? About 10%?

I find that a 16mb Mako holds my stuff in good stead (about 73% full with all apps from Contacts to Agenda to Word running) so while I have a waiting copy of zExe, I haven't had to put it to the test. Good to hear that you have had no problems. Do you suffer any reduction in speed?

But I hadn't known about nArchive, and my interest is piqued. For large manuscripts (I mostly write and email on these things), I keep them zipped, just have them stored. Then transfer to a desktop if needed on the road, which up until now, there has never been a call for.

But with nArchive, I could actually access the big files on the Mako. Though these docs run 400+ pages, taxing Word a bit, I bet... But thanks for the heads-up.

Snigfarp, how goes it with the second machine? If you ever got it up and running, THEY might make a good tandem for the road, especially with EpocSync to make them identical via IR.

Jake

[Colin Messer]

Yes around 10%. It has light use, mostly weekends and Monday evenings, and gets recharged weekly. The 8MB Revo would suit my purpose better: EPOC built in apps and TunePal doesn't require 24MB, but my youngest daughter has taken possession.

I noticed no difference in speed, but then I think much slower these days :)

Colin

[snigfarp]

The second machine, Vitellius, just came off a full charge cycle earlier this evening. It was at 100% but switched off after a second's use (I tapped Extras). It wouldn't switch back on, so I shut it and left it. An hour later it switched back on, but any activity at all just switches it off. As I went to shut the case again the screen flickered on and off a couple of times. Then it shut off completely. After closing and opening again I switched it on and it did a hard reset of its own accord. With all this the battery meter has dropped to 95% and then 86% in the space of a couple of minutes. With opening and shutting having some effect, could this be a cable problem rather than a battery problem? I'm letting the machine discharge again, just for the sake of it.

The first machine, Otho, was left on all day to discharge while Vitellius was charging up. Otho switched itself off after about 9 hours, though when I plugged it in again the battery was at 11%. It's been on charge for the past hour and a half, and the red light has just gone off.

I'm optimistic about Otho but I think from the above behaviour that Vitellius will need a little TLC if I ever want to use it independently of a power source.

[Jake]

Having suffered Revo screen problems as well, I don't think V's problem sounds like a cable problem. If it ever stays on long enough for you to touch-tap, then open a Word document and point around, especially at the vertical and horizontal scrollbars. If they're reacting at exactly where you point, that would be a good sign.

My amateur guess is that the screen is flickering because the battery is weak. I would plug it in, get to the Contol Panel, turn off the auto switchoff, unplug, try to turn it on and drain with no keyboard/pointer activity. But it doesn't sound good, and may force you to consider battery replacement. But you folks in England can such cheaper Psion repairs than the colonies overseas can.

Colin, I admire your parenting. I don't let my 11-year-old daughter in the same ROOM with my Psions. Too fragile on all sides. But I did rebuild a laptop just for her, faster hard drive, and I put in more more memory than I ever got to use with it, so I have my magic moments as a father, just not with Psions yet :)

Jake

[snigfarp]

It seems strange, if the problem is just the battery, that Vitellius has been happily draining for 10 hours, and I've just had a game of Cascade with the battery at 11% (even though I did turn the sound off as a precaution). But then, these things don't seem to follow logic. I'll keep playing it, and doing recharge/drain cycles, and see what happens.

As Otho has been semi-reliable over a few more recharge cycles, I'll see how it reacts to normal use.

[Jake]

Yes, normal use is the next test, an even more natural drain over a couple of weeks with the machine stored somewhere and turned on only now and then.

Jake

[snigfarp]

Just an update after nearly six months. I gave up on Vitellius as, after a number of recharge and discharge cycles, I still didn't get reliable use out of it at all - problems reappearing a few minutes after a full recharge.

As for Otho, I recharged and discharged for another week afterwards and put the machine to the test. If I enable any significant sound other than the screen click (e.g. sounds in Cascade, or alarms), the machine switches off pretty quickly, even with the batteries at or near 100%. If I disable the alarms, the machine seems to be reliable down to about 20-40% charge, after which it starts switching off again.

I assume this is as good as it's going to get. If keeping the machine out of action for a couple of weeks with charging and discharging doesn't fix the problem, I don't think doing the same for a month or a year would make any difference. Even if it did, the machine would be next to useless if this sort of messing about is necessary on a regular basis.

I've kept both machines, and I'll be using Otho for program development at home. But as I'd like a reliable Revo, I've just bid on and won a Revo+ on eBay. I've heard anecdotal evidence that the battery usage is a little more straightforward on the later machine, so I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks to everyone who tried to help me earlier on in the year.

[Jake]

Sorry to hear that the news isn't better. Now that you're amassing extra Revos (you've joined the true fraternity; we all have hundreds :) ), you could dissect Otho--already a terminal case--and install a battery pack yourself. AA tabbed batteries are where you start, the more mAh, the better.

I've got a huge directory of how-to on this. PM if you want me to send it on.

Jake

[snigfarp]

I'm intending to dissect Vitellius first, which has a completely dead battery. I think I can get several hours' use out of Otho as it is, but Vitellius is the real terminal case. If I'm successful on that machine then I can move on to Otho. This will all be good practice at Psion surgery - I also have a 5mx screen cable to replace.

[snigfarp]

Just a quick update. My 16mb Revo Plus is also very troublesome, despite the battery being supposedly only 6 months old. It's currently undergoing charge/discharge cycles but the results are so far not encouraging. One interesting symptom is that if I wiggle the screen casing slightly on its hinge, without touching the screen itself, this sometimes triggers a switch-off. I've managed to reproduce this at all levels of charge, when not on mains power. Could this one therefore have some sort of cable problem?

[Jake]

MAN, you've had some bad luck! It certainly sounds like a cable problem--as you know, the machine does have a programmable ability to shut when the case is closed, so your machine--just the way it does with its batteries--is taking this to the extreme.

As for the actual dissection and treatment of this problem, I wouldn't know where to begin. Actually, I would begin on ebay: Makos are very reasonably priced, and I would look there rather than agonize over the two you already own.

As for buying, I would stay away from people who can't answer the question about red light length, etc. (most can't, but there are sellers out there who are also lucid owners) and I would not buy NIB. I've done that twice and the battery failed both times. These machines can't stay in the box for 7+ years and emerge with a functioning battery. It doesn't matter if they still have that new Revo smell :)

Jake

[snigfarp]

Thanks Jake. I'm beginning to feel like the Revo is little more than an expensive tamagotchi, with its time-consuming, attention-demanding battery system. I've already decided that I'm not buying another one, under any circumstances. I'm not desperate to have one, to be honest, I only bought them so I could test my own software. That I can do on mains power.

As it happens, the last couple of recharge cycles on the 16mb machine have been a bit better, running right down to about 0% power and not switching off when I wiggle the screen. There may be hope for it yet.

The 8mb one has been good enough to get some screen shots for my games database. That's on battery power - it runs for a few hours before needing to be recharged, which is enough for the purpose. It's even been quite tolerant of some games that play loud noises the first time they're launched.

I intend to send them off for the necessary repairs in due course. But they'll have to wait their turn - my 5mx with its screen cable problems has priority as I know it will be reliable once it gets a new flexi (my brother and I chickened out of fitting the flexi cable ourselves).

[Brileend]

Hello,

I just found your thread on REVO batteries and joined the forum. I am trying to revive a REVO + that has not been been used for over 3 years. Not suprisingly the batteries seem to be U/S.

Jake - you mentioned replacing them using tagged AAA replacement batteries. Could you be kind enough to give me more info on that? I have taken the old batteries out. Where can get I can suitable replacements? I have found a supply of AAA tagged NiMH 700mAh at £3.69 each. Should these do the job, or can you recommend somewhere else to get higher capacity/more suitable batteries.

I am handy with a soldering iron.

All the best,

Brileend

[Jake]

Hi, Brileend,

700mAh is about as low as you can get; nevertheless, it's the Revo+/Mako default. I think I used 800mAh, but my amateur opinion is that 700mAh should be okay for you.

I bought my tabbed batteries on ebay, but American ebay, so I'm afraid I can't recommend a store. PM me if you need instructions about the actual battery replacement.

Jake

[Brileend]

Hello Jake,

Thanks for the response. I have ordered two 800mAh batteries. I will get in touch again to let you know how I get on.

Brileend