How old is your Palm?

[Stardust]

Is there any way of telling exactly when a Palm was manufactured?

I ask this question because the lithium-ion battery of the m515 lasts only two years from date of manufacture. I don't want to purchase a unit that has been in storage or on display for 12 months or so, because that means I can use the bloody thing for only a year before it kicks the bucket.

[phish]

There is a small app called Warranty Info that should help. Available here:


http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=58945020021206020002&prodID=16171

[Stardust]

phish,

Thanks, but I don't know how the app you recommended can help me. I'd like to know the date of manufacture of the Palm BEFORE purchasing it. And obviously, I can't install the software unlesss I purchase the unit.

Is the date of manufacture indicated somewhere on the box or on the body of the Palm? Can't the retailer furnish this information if it isn't?

[cwablue]

If I remember correctly, the box belonging to my ill-fated m505 had a sticker on the shrink wrap, with a production date. I'll check it out later.

--John

[phish]

Sorry.

Unless the date is on the box I don't know of any other way.

I don't think the retailer would know when it was made, they would only know how long they have had it.

[PalmUserFI]

Originally posted by Stardust
Is there any way of telling exactly when a Palm was manufactured?

I ask this question because the lithium-ion battery of the m515 lasts only two years from date of manufacture. I don't want to purchase a unit that has been in storage or on display for 12 months or so, because that means I can use the bloody thing for only a year before it kicks the bucket.
I think that two years thing is this: litiumIon battery can be charged only about 500 times after that it can not holds it's charge.. or something like that.

[JohnKes]

The permanent damage comes from oxidation of the lithium. This starts on the fabrication date, as soon as the electrolyte touches the positive plate:
http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap10-page6.asp

Cycling only makes it worse.

Wonderful, huh?

[Stardust]

I believe the vast majority of those who purchase new PDAs never bother to ask the date of manufacture. The question wouldn't be critical if the lithium battery were easily replaceable and replacement batteries were readily available.

You're right, John. Wonderful set-up and the PDA community seems to be happy with it.

[Sonny]

My mobile phone uses Lithium-ion batteries which have been going strong for four and a half years now. Why should the Palm Lithium-ion batteries have have such a short life in comparison?

Sonny

[DrMud]

I am told the Serial Number contains the date. I collected the explanation below some years ago. I hope it works.
Doc

"Reading a serial number:
Here is a (fake) Serial Number: 50GK18h9HNJU
The 3rd and 4th letters are the unit designators, GK is for the Vx series.
The 6th, 7th and 8th characters are the Month, Day and Year.
So, for our example serial number the month would be August and the Year would be '99.
The day would be as follows...numbers 1-9 are just numbers 1-9.
"a"= 10, "b" = 11 and so on. Our example Palm was made on August 17, 1999. "

[Stardust]

Thanks for the tip, DrMud. I'll check the formula with the Palm retailers.

But I wonder why Palm doesn't spell out clearly when any of their products was made. Isn't this information vital to would-be buyers?

[DrMud]

I'm not sure who needs this info.
I do know that there are different dates that apply to each unit. There is a ROM date for example that is not the same as the assembly date. The story goes that you can retrieve the ROM date by (start in a new memo) making the Graffiti Short cut loop then a Graffiti period (two taps) followed by the number "6". The date should appear in the place of your graffiti strokes. The only reason that I say "Story" is that I have two Palm 515s with the same ROM date, to the minute. Can anybody say "I don't think so!"? I'm not saying there couldn't be two, but the likelihood of my having two is a real stretch.
Doc

[JohnKes]

The ROM date is the date when the ROM software was released. That software was then copied into thousands of ROM chips for various PalmOS devices. In the copy process, the revision date for the ROM file was retained.

I can see your point though if it were the ROM burning date. Given how many units are out there, it would be unlikely to get two units that had their ROM burned in on the same date and minute.

[tuffguy]

So does the battery really burn out after 2 years or 500 charges? If so, how much does it cost to replace the battery, and would a person be better off to just buy a new pda, considering their technology is outdated?

I guess I bought this thing thinking the battery would last as long as the pda itself. Kind of like cell phones. By the time the battery wears out, the phone is usually shot.

I'm also guessing that, like the cell phones, the battery doesn't just get "shot" but instead starts to have a lower charge capacity. Is this right?

tuff

[JohnKes]

You are right - the battery charge capacity just gets lower and lower. By 2 years, it won't last very long. By 3 years, it won't run the PDA.

The lithium in Li-Ion batteries slowly oxidizes from Day 1, so not much you can do to make it last longer. You can make it worse by deep cycling. It should last at least 500 cycles from 100% to 20%.

If you did that every day, that is almost a year and a half of use. That's 2 generations of Sony PDAs! Now you see why the Sony T-665 can use such a small battery.

[KCProbe]

Ok, I thought that the batteries typically lasted about 2 weeks before needing to be charged? I know that the rechargeable batteries that I used in my Palm IIIxe lasted about 3-4 weeks before needing to be charged (and I used them until I sold it, and they always worked fine). If the battery in the Palm m515 lasts 2 weeks before needing to be charged, then you shouldn't have a problem, since it can last almost 21 yrs. (my cell phone's battery, on the other hand, had to be replaced within a year, because I drained it constantly through usage). Just a thought.


-James R.

[tuffguy]

Personally, I can't go anywhere near that long without charging. With every use, I need to charge every day. I do this about twice a week. Normal usage, about a week, so I charge about three times a week.

Good to know about deep cycling though. I don't always do it, because I need power when I need to use it. But being used to the old kind of batteries, I thought deep cycling would be good. Thanks for the info John.

tuff

[JohnKes]

Glad to be of service, tuffguy. Gotta give credit to Stardust for getting me interested in Li-Ion batteries.

[TGKJR]

I came across the following and filed it away for future reference.

http://********hightech.com/generic147.html

[n_sram2k]

Hi,
If you want to know when you palm was manufactured, you can do the following.

1. Click on your Home.
2. Click on the Menu.
3. Now click on Info.
4. You will get your Serial Number
5. This will help to get serial number even if your sticker at the back of your palm is lost.

[elhakeem]

I understood after buying the Palm 515 that it was manufactured in March 2002. I presume that this is the reference for the battery.

Do I understand that once the battery is dead, I have to buy a new unit. Some have posted "do it yourself" from gethightech website for instructions on how to change the battery. I have emailed them, they do not sell batteries, and they do not know where to get them?.

Any taker?

[phish]

I saw a link to http://www.palmbattery.com/ on a news group, they sell batteries.

[TheSpies]

cant you just use dot code 6? i know thats when the rom was burned but the rest of the unit would be assembled in a very short time from that.

my NX says 9/4/02,11:19 am

[swithin]

I ordered a new battery from Laptops for Less. Came with instructions and torx screwdriver. Nice. Replacement was easy. If only it worked.

The old battery held a partial charge. The new one doesn't charge at all. Took it apart again and checked the connections--theres' only one way the connector from the battery can connect to the jack on the palm. So there's little chance of screwing that up. I'm thinking that the problem may now be getting the charge to the battery. Maybe my cradle connection isn' t good. Or maybe it's something internal. Next test is to try to clean the connections. If that doesn't work, I'm going to have to give up doing it myself and ask for professional help.

But if you really have just a dead battery, the replacement process is easy. Prepare to spend 50$ on the new battery.

[little-man]

Spies -
The ".6" operation does not tell you when the ROM was burned, it tells you when the software was made. For example, all true Palm III's say "3/5/98, 11:03 am". My IIIc says 6/12/01, 1:41 pm, as do all others with the OS 4.1 upgrade. As DrMud stated earlier, both of his m515's have the same ROM date. That is because they use the same software, which was made at the same time.

[TheSpies]

DOH! your right, i might have noticed the words "revision date" if i had read more carefully. :)

[azmmr]

I have been looking at refurbished units. I never thought about the original battery life, does anybody know if a new battery is always installed at refurb?

[tuffguy]

I really doubt it. I don't think that would be very "economically feasible." Though I do believe refurb units come with a warranty.

[JohnKes]

90 day warranty?!!

JK

[azmmr]

makes me think twice about buying a refurb, Thanks.

[Stardust]

Let's face it: the seed of our parting with our precious color PDA was planted when we purchased it. The basic question is: is two years of usage worth what you invested in a particular model?

[swithin]

Good point Stardust. My initial answer is no friggen way! $360 for an m505 should get more use than a year (in my case). Yes, a desktop computer depreciates more than that, but c'mon.

Although, the cost to repair the unit could be more than, or a significant portion of, the cost of a new m515.

TOUGH CHOICE.

[Ana]

I noticed that if you do the "Shortcut.6" operation and put other number instead of 6, it appears other information.
i.e.
4 - it appeared my hotsync ID and below 30139

Does anyone know what these numbers mean?

[little-man]

don't start experimenting with that, some of those "dot number" shortcuts can really screw up your palm.

[little-man]

Ok, I just got a list of what the "dot commands" do. It's quoted from "undocumented palm info v2" by David Brookes. Here it is:

You can create shortcuts for long sentences or words in the Prefs app. Then, to use this feature, you enter the shortcut stroke (see your manual) and enter the shortcut. eg 'sig' for your name and email address. This is, of course, mentioned in the manual, but the following shortcuts are not. To use them you enter the shortcut stroke, then double-tap, and then the number.
CAUTION! USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!
.1 Enter debug mode with halt. Debugging information is sent to the Pilot's serial port. Soft reset to exit.
.2 Enter debug mode and continues the app. Debugging information is sent to the Pilot's serial port. Soft reset to exit.
.3 Disable auto power-off.
.4 Flashes user name and unique ID number. This number is used in the Windows registry as part of the flag to install new apps.
.5 Erases user configuration and clears the hotsync log, but does not clear your data. Attempting a re-sync will download your information as duplicate records. Hard reset to prevent this.
.6 Displays the ROM's revision date. The original Pilot shows "1/9/96, 10:41 am". The PalmPilot shows "2/18/97, 5:08 pm" The 2mb upgrade shows "6/8/98, 5:56 pm" The true P3 shows "3/5/98, 11:03 am"
.7 Toggles the battery mode between NiCad and Alkaline. Adjusts the battery meter on the App screen.
.x .t .s .i These four exist, but I am not sure what they do. I don't recommend tryinq them yourself, as I did (foolishly), and suffered a hard reset shortly after. I am now certain of the use of ".i". If you usually turn off Beam Receive in Prefs, but you quickly want to turn it on again to receive data, then enter this shortcut. It is safe to use!

[Ana]

Thanks for the explanation. But before you post it, I tried all numbers and almost all letters with the shortcut.
At least my sony seems to be the same. :)

[jpf22467]

very interesting. How do you make the Grafitti shortcut loop? I got the two taps and the 6.

By the way, I checked with my serial number on my 515, it starts of with 00TA34I2 > That means a date of 4-18-2002. I then checked my Warranty app and it was the same date. Nice trick that you taugh us.

On another note. I have been buying and selling old palms for about a year. I always add the warranty app when I am testing the unit. I have come across some old V and Vx units that were over 2 years old, but still held a charge.

[Ana]

If you know how the shortcut loop is,I mean the shape, just 'draw' it.

[DrMud]

My 505 is more than 2 years old and the only noticable battery change is that the initial 20% drop in voltage occurs in about half the time that it does on a newer unit. Once the battery is down 20% the decline as a result of use is very normal.
Doc

[JohnKes]

DrMud,
Same thing happens with my 9 month old Prism! It is a very distinct drop that can be seen using HiBattery to graph voltage vs days.

[DrMud]

I'm not convinced the actual voltage drops in that fashion so miuch as I think the software reads the voltage incorrectly as fully charged when in fact the battery can no longer achieve a full charge. Once some of the Lithium plates out, capacity decreases. I suppose we could get into a nearly useless semantic battle over expressing battery capacity in Volts or amps.
Doc

[Stardust]

The battery issue will hang fire and we'll be splitting hairs until Palm or Sony comes out with a new PDA with an easy-to-replace battery.

[DrMud]

Great idea! I wonder if they want their offspring to last beyond the battery?
Doc

[Stardust]

Good point, Dr Mud. But don't you think a good thing deserves to last longer?

[jpf22467]

I am wondering why this post is still going? You Pay $300-$400 for a "computer" (Palm PDA) and it does all that you want for 2 years. I dont see the problem. Isnt that what we do with our desktop computers also? and they cost a little more then $400.
I say, enjoy the palm while you have it, run it for 2 -3 years, then upgrade to a better (with a new battery also).

Good Luck
http://www.geocities.com/palmbrothers/Palm.html

[JohnKes]

The point is that after 2 years, that $300-$400 computer is dead.

For ~$1500, you get a hot computer which is obsolete but still usable after 2 years. A motherboard upgrade, etc. of ~10%-20% of the original cost gets you another 2 years. So you won't throw the whole thing away for quite a while.

I'm into PDAs because it is fun, and has only been costing me about $200 a year. Can't say the same for my PC.

[Sonny]

jpf22467

Some of us do not have the financial resources to replace our PC's and PDA's every 2 to 3 years. I am typing this on a PC that is 4 years old and still working well. I would expect to reasonably get 5 to 6 years out of a PDA for the price you pay for them. At that age they may not be the latest and greatest but they will still perform basic organiser functions which is the main reason I use a PDA. The additional uses I can get from them is just a bonus.


Sonny

[pcastric]

I agree Sonny. Upgrading your computer system and/or PDA on a regular basis would require you to rethink ones spending priorities.

In my case, I decided to upgrade from an M105 to an M505. When I first mentioned this to my wife, she was quite annoyed saying that, in her opinion, the purchase was not neccessary as my M105 was all I really needed and that I didnt need this new "toy" especially with Christmas coming, i.e. money needed to purchase Xmas gifts.

Another factor of course is where you live. Whenever I read in various magazines, forums and other places about the special deals on computers, PDAs and other things, in 90% of cases, prices are being quoted in US$$. Here in Canada, the exchange rate is normally calculated at 50% - which means something that costs $1.00US will cost me $1.50CND. Also, you must add taxes on top of that (15%).

Of course if your name is Bill Gates, cost is no object.

[jpf22467]

if cost is an issue, think second hand. there are many place to get used palms that work great.

[Sonny]

When what I want is a PDA to keep track of my timetable, have a handy record of my contacts and to make notes then I don't need to keep replacing it with the latest thing to come on the market.
When you have commitments such as family and a mortgage etc these have to take priority and as useful as a PDA is, there are other means of keeping track of this information and therefore a lot of people have no choice but to consider them a non essential toy. Even second hand ones cost money. In New Zealand second hand PDA's are not readily available and when they are the price is such that you would be better off buying new and have the extra security of the warranty and the protection offered by New Zealand's Consumer Guarantees Act. Prices for Palms in NZ range from about $450 for a M105 to about $1300 for a Tungston.

[pcastric]

All I can say Sonny is "Wow" - and I thought Canadian prices were expensive!

[Sonny]

I should have mentioned that there are about 2 NZ dollars to the US dollar.

Sonny

[pcastric]

Wow, its not too often you see currencies that are worth more than the almighty US dollar.

[JohnKes]

$650 (US) for a Tungsten - Wow!

[Sonny]

How much does a Tungsten cost in the US?

Sonny

[JohnKes]

$400-$500 US:
http://shopper.cnet.com/shopping/resellers/0-205442-311-20571738-3.html?fl=0&tag=st.sh.205442-311-20571738.sort.price

[Sonny]

Oh Well.....

If we wait long enough the Tungsten may come down to that level in NZ. The m130 was just under $800 when it was first available in NZ. You can now get them for $500.

[Stardust]

It seems to me that those who think 2 years of usage from a new PDA is quite okay live in the US.

The Tungsten costs the equivalent of US$522 in Manila. This may not seem atrocious to those living in the US and Canada. But for those of us who live in the Third World?

I go back to my original question: why won't Palm or Sony come out with a PDA with an easy to replace battery?

[little-man]

Stardust -
Answer to your question: They want us to buy new PDAs when our battery runs out. They figure that most of us will want to have the newer models anyways, so no replaceable battery means an excuse to buy a new PDA. They like that, obviously, because they make more money from it.

[Sonny]

I suspect this will not be considered acceptable under NZ law. Here there is a Consumer Guarantees Act which amongst other things states that goods sold to private individuals by a retailer must be fit for their purpose and durable. I think that an item that has a battery that fails after two years and is not replacable will not be considered durable. If retailers find themselves stung by this too often they are going to be wary of stocking such products with the possibility that Palm could lose the New Zealand market. Unfortunately the country is probably too small for this to make much of an impact on Palm.

[swithin]

Maybe the reason that the Tungsten is about $200 more in NZ is BECAUSE of the Consumer Guarantee Act. (That's the libertarian in me speaking.)

Here's an honest question: How much would it cost to buy a Tungsten here (uh, sorry, here in the U.S.), and send it to NZ? It's got to be less than $650, right?

[Sonny]

Twelve and a half per cent Goods and Services Tax (GST) and ten per cent import duty accounts for a reasonable amount of the extra cost in NZ.

[Chris1054]

I bought my m515 at Best Buy. I convinced myself that the 2 year extended warranty was worth it. After reading the posts of the surprsingly short lifespan of the battery I am now even more glad I spent the extra $60. In 2 years when my battery has died I will just take it back to Best Buy, tell them it won't hold a charge any more and I get a new PDA for nothing but the $60 I spent 2 years ago.

[Stardust]

little-man,

Undoubtedly, that is the intent of PDA manufacturers, who hold the entire Palming community by you-know-where. And I thought producers should follow what consumers want if they are to stay in business. Something is terriby wrong here.

[pcastric]

Perhaps those people got their training from the mining industry, i.e. promise the electorate the mine and give the the shaft!

[JohnKes]

Finally a Palm PDA with a replaceable battery, high-res screen, bluetooth:
http://www.visorvillage.com/articles/2003/1/2003-1-9-Sony-Loads-CLIE.html

If only I had $800 to play with.

[little-man]

Wow, seems like agreat PDA. Kinda clunky looking, but they did most of the things I would have suggested, including a REAL camera, a better keyboard, bluetooth, a replaceable battery (even though it is $80 for a new battery pack) and more spacing between the hardware keys. I bet they'll still keep making the NX though, because it's cheaper and it looks sleeker. I like the silver better.

[Stardust]

Hurrah to Palm! Now, which one to choose: the new $800 NZ, whose life you can extend, or two $400 models, which will kick the bucket in two years. Hard choice.

[Stardust]

I meant to say, hurrah to Sony!

Palm has been beaten to the draw again?

[JohnKes]

$800 USD!!