still no betty replacement

[wa5ngp]

I have been reading various forums and I still don't see a good replacement for Betty. It seems that all the new gps stuff is built into phones and they depend on the "cloud" for their map data. Besides the costs of being on line this does not do much good if you are in the middle of the bay or in a park like Big Bend with no web access.

I suspect that sooner or later a gps droid which is more open will show up that has more user accessible mapping function.

I also watch the map authors group on yahoo. There are tools out there that allow you to make your own garmin maps and lots of people do it. Those guys are concerned that all the new garmin devices rely on "the cloud" and don't read the old map formats so they are keeping their old stuff around just like us. For my part I use Fugawi which is a very simple raster image based map creating tool. Fugawi is available for Iphone but that version depends on"the cloud" so it is not compatible with the maps I have. For now all the suppliers are counting on making money on the access fees to the web rather than the hardware.

Let me know if I'm missing something.

Don

[Ken in Regina]

Hi Don,

You're missing a lot.

For one thing, I don't know of any new Garmin devices that depend on the cloud for map data. There have been some advancements in downloading map products from Garmin, but no dependencies.

You can still buy your maps on a DVD and load them via Mapsource if you want. In addition, if you are the impatient type you can download a precompiled map directly into your device. You don't have to wait for anything to come in the mail. But the maps don't work in Mapsource because they're already compiled.

The only dependency I can think of is Garmin's lifetime updates. You have to download them. As far as I know you can't get them on DVD. But when you download them you have the options to install on the device only, on the PC only (e.g. in Mapsource) or on both.

There are a number of products available for the smartphones that do not depend on the cloud. TomTom has some. For instance, TomTom makes a car cradle for the older iPhone/iPod/Touch that did not contain a GPS chip. It includes a GPS chip in the cradle and software and maps to install on the unit, so no dependency on a cellular connection.

Garmin has their Mobile for Blackberry. The Blackberrys have GPS chips in them and the Garmin app installs the nav software and the maps, so no dependency on a cellular connection.

There are already a bunch for the Android, starting with CoPilot Live 8 which has been around for years and is standalone software and maps. Sygic Mobile is another good standalone product.

Etc.

Most of the smartphones have GPS chips built in and most have one or more nav manufacturers doing standalone software and maps for them, with more coming every day. Even HPalm's WebOS has standalone nav apps coming.

The smartphones aren't quite as accurate as the dedicated nav devices like Nuvis and TomToms because there isn't much space for a good size patch antenna. But the ones I've seen are all as good as Betty.

Of course if you do have a data connection you can use Google Maps for live navigation on most devices. That gives you access to a pretty sweet set of aerial maps, just like using Google Earth on the PC.

The biggest problem comes from the cellular phone companies. They love to force the phone manufacturers to lock up all the goodies and then you have to pay them to get them unlocked, if they'll even do that. Some cellular phone companies refuse to unlock the GPS chip and they only allow you to use whatever GPS app they have approved, using their costly data link of course.

But that's a problem caused by the cellular phone companies, not the navigation software companies.

...ken...

[wa5ngp]

Sounds like I need to do my homework. So far everytime I looked at the smartphones that I got to a spec that said gps is done via cellphone towers or that maps were in the cloud. You are correct that is what the cellphone network providers want. IPhone/Itouch in particular. I'm surprised that Apple let Tom Tom make a network independent device. There is a Fugawi app for Iphone but it depends on the cloud.

Since I'd like to continue using the Palm Fugawi software, in theory the Palm Treo 750 could work but I can't tell if it still supports the Palm apps since its really a windows device. I am assuming the gps claimed is really gps not cellphone towers.. This is important for me since I've made lots of maps with Fugawi. Fugawi supports windows mobile so I should check that. I'd think that they work on Palm and Windows Mobile.

tks
Don

[Ken in Regina]

It all gets confusing really quickly.

The cellphone tower thing is a classic example of misunderstanding and bad explanations by the phone sales people that gets propogated. Almost all smartphones, and even "feature" phones like my LG Rumour 2, have a GPS chip in them. So the dependency on "cell phone towers" has mostly nothing to do with finding your location. It has two relevant functions.

The first is access to the map data. So, the truth of the descriptions is that if you do not have a standalone nav application with maps installed on your phone, you are dependent upon a connection in order to get the map data. But it's the GPS chip in the phone that's doing the GPS location work.

The second is AGPS - Assisted GPS. You will recall that sometimes Betty takes awhile to get a good fix. This happens in a variety of situations, like you've moved quite a distance from where you last used the GPS. Or you're in an urban canyon where the GPS reception isn't great. Given long enough, the GPS chip will eventually get a fix. But with AGPS, the phone can get information from the cellular network to get a quick ballpark on your location. That is, the network knows the location of the tower your phone is currently communicating through, so it can provide a ballpark that helps the GPS chip obtain a lock much more quickly because it now has a better idea which satellites it should be able to see and can lock on more quickly.

Another fiction is that assisted GPS (AGPS) makes the phone more "accurate" with your positioning. That's nonsense. It simply helps the phone get a location fix a little quicker than it would on its own.

If the Treo 750 runs Windows Mobile, you can't run Palm apps on it. But if Fugawi also makes a Windows Mobile app, you're good to go (for navigation anyway). The maps don't give a hoot which operating system is using them.

...ken...

[Ken in Regina]

Hey Don, here's something you might be interested in.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/16/google-maps-5-0-hits-android-includes-new-3d-map-view-and-offli/

...ken...

[wa5ngp]

Here is one with potential as well.
http://pathaway.com/

It is really frustrating when they say AGPS as you don't know if it helps the standard GPS or if it is totally cellphone tower dependent. I know that real GPS is a battery hog so this motivates the handheld guys to NOT include real GPS. Not to mention motivation from the carriers to use only the cloud.

Besides fugawi I have also learned how to make homemade IMG maps so ideally I'd find one that supports the garmin format as well.

According to this
http://pathaway.com/PWWinMobile.htm

their Pro version supports img formats.

I am a tmobile pay as you go customer with no plans to update. So this would say I need a GSM windows mobile device.

On the other hand I may just buy another Betty on ebay or somewhere and keep my tiny Nokia basic tmobile cellphone. Carry 2 toys.

I have repaired lots on my betty. I have even replaced the pin head sized gps amplifier in that trap door. I'm afraid sooner or later something is going to happen that is not fixable. The crazy digitizer behaviour is one issue. Maybe screen cleaning would help. It did something similar when I was down at the coast in salty air.

Don

[Ken in Regina]

Here is one with potential as well.
http://pathaway.com/
I have Pathaway on Betty. It's pretty slick. You can use the PC application to calibrate any map image that you scan, or a screen capture. It's pretty slick.

It is really frustrating when they say AGPS as you don't know if it helps the standard GPS or if it is totally cellphone tower dependent. I know that real GPS is a battery hog so this motivates the handheld guys to NOT include real GPS. Not to mention motivation from the carriers to use only the cloud.

This is another bit of dis- or mis-information. If you are doing real navigation, it's happening with a real GPS chip in the phone. Period.

The only thing you need the connection to the network for is to get the map data. Doing it that way actually uses MORE power than a standalone nav app because you're running the cellular data transmit/receive continuously. You don't need to do that for standalone nav so it will be easier on the battery.

...ken...

[wa5ngp]

Pathaway sounds a lot like Fugawi. Fugawi runs on the windoze mobile so maybe a windows phone with real GPS in it would work for me. Or even the windows betty version. I noticed that forum here is practically dead.

I assume that the Pathaway maps are a raster type map, correct? They are large but they are so much easier to make. Will Pathaway import maps from Ozie explorer? I may give that a whirl after the holidays.

Interestingly, I finally got this TPad Infared to work on the sync so I'm not so dependent on that fragile connector. Thats one less potential gotcha.

Don

[Ken in Regina]

Hi Don,

Pathaway uses raster. You can use scans or screen captures. I don't know about converting from OziExplorer.

What's "Tpad Infrared"?

...ken...

[wa5ngp]

I was referring to the fact that I could sync with my thinkpad via the infared port.

I downloaded and tried the pathaway. So far it seems that fugawi is much better. Its faster. Fugawi uses raster maps but has a compression algorythm that is better. Fugawi also came with some digital maps that can be copied to Betty.

I'm going to PM you. I'd like to exchange email ids. It seems like you and I are the only 2 people in the world who are still using bettys.

Happy Holidays to everyone.
Great weather here in Central Texas.
http://galleries.statesman.com/gallery/photos-day-december-2010/147235/

that's not me, I'm younger :)

Don

[Adam Helberg]

I can't see using a phone to navigate. What happens when a call comes in and you want to answer it, and it's navigating on the dash?

Adam

[Ken in Regina]

Hi Adam,

That's what Bluetooth handsfree is for. Of course your smartphone has to be able to allow calls when the GPS feature is running but most, if not all, of the new smartphones will do that. And play music all at the same time. :D

It's really not a big deal. My Nuvi 765T GPS is getting to be pretty old technology and it will keep right on navigating as I use its Bluetooth handsfree connection to make or receive calls through my (not-smart) cell phone.

My concern about using a smartphone for automobile nav is the small size of the screens on most smartphones. I find anything smaller than Betty's screen is just too small for me.

...ken...

[Last Mrk]

My I-Que Display is 3.8” and has a resolution of 240 x 320 pixels.

My iPhone 4 display is 3.5” and has a resolution of 640 x 960 but because it’s much brighter and also because of the retina display it is much easier to use for navigating than my iQue.

JMHO :)

[wa5ngp]

You are correct, the IPHONE ITOUCH screen is sweet,
BUT the way the IPHONE is configured it does not meet the requirements. It does not have a real GPS receiver in it (did they fix that?) and you have to get maps from the cloud on the web. So if you are in the middle of nowhere with no web access your IPHONE gps is not of much value. I've heard that you can preload maps but if you didn't do that before your hike then you are out of luck.

If there were a standalone GPS app that used maps already on the iphone or touch that would be great.

I think it boils down to, do you want a real GPS or do you want a phone that supports most GPS functions?

Since the IPHONE is such a proprietary device I suspect that the phones with other OS's will ultimately solve this problem with 3rd party apps. The IPhone experience is wrapped around the providers ATT and soon to be Verizon. Adding standalone gps and maps doesn't help them make money so I don't think Apple will make it easy for standalone GPS.

For now I carry Betty and my small 1 function cellphone.

JMHO
BETTY still limps along
Don

[Ken in Regina]

Hi Don,

Mythbusters:

1. The iPhone 4 definitely has a real GPS in it. I have a friend with one. And I've been told by a long-time iPhone user that the iPhone 3 also has one.

2. There are standalone navigation apps for the iPhone. TomTom makes one. There are probably others.

I did some checking on this issue a couple of weeks ago and I was able to find standalone nav apps for all of the major smartphone types, e.g. iPhone, Blackberry, Android, etc.

Garmin's latest move is rather discouraging and a real head-scratcher. Their nav app for the iPhone is not standalone. You need an internet connection to use the maps.

...ken...

[wa5ngp]

Seems as Garmin is thinking better to join 'em rather than fight 'em. They did their asus thing but somehow it didn't work out well for them.
don

[dtlee]

I have used Betty from the beginning and last year upgraded my smartphone to an HTC HD2 (which is an incredible product, by the way). I installed CoPilot on the smartphone and find it to be a competent GPS. However, Betty has me terribly spoiled, and while I travel with both my phone and my iQue 3600, I find that Betty is easier to use to set destinations and easier to switch to turn-by-turn information and just a better partner in general. There are some features that my phone has that leave Betty in the dust (like the ability to get traffic incident information and route around it) and it has an incredible screen, but I find myself using Betty more often than not.

[wa5ngp]

That HTC phone seems to be one of the most popular ones going right now. My cellphone is still a cheapo "candy bar" model. I'm still holding out.

When you use the HTC do you have a dependency on cell phone data access or will it work in the middle of nowhere with no cell towers? I think that you have to have cell access to get the map data on the fly and for improved location since the gps receiver is not as good.

I have noticed in other reviews that people recommend external blue tooth gps receivers. A good GPS receiver is a power hog and since battery life is so critical for cell phones there is usually a compromise there. Too bad they don't have a good GPS receiver inside that can be turned on when desired at the expense of battery life. Interesting thing is, for the price of a blue tooth gps receiver you can get a used Betty.

I also use Fugawi on Betty as it is a better hiking gps package. I suspect if not already, someone will sell an Android package that is similar.

I think for the average person that level of GPS on HTC and IPHONE is fine. :) Its only the nerdy type that are concerned and the nerdy market is not that big.:(

Don

[dtlee]

I am still learning about cell phone GPS tools. Apparently, I am not young enough for this to be "innate" knowledge.

Here are some of the things I think may be true (notice the hedging). I can use gps with google maps or with bing to navigate as long as I have access to the internet. The main route I drive works fine since there are multiple cell towers supporting it. However, when I am in the "wealthier" communities, I cannot always get a phone signal and these GPS solutions are unreliable at best.

With Copilot 8, the maps are resident in the device and the only need for the internet is for traffic updates (extra fee) which apparently are accessed via the internet.

Thus, as I configured it, I can navigate via some pretty good internet utilities or via Copilot. Both seem to be using not only some kind of cellular positioning, but also the internal GPS antenna.

The phone is much quicker than Betty at determining where I am, but much poorer at evaluating the best route or how long it will take me there (because Garmin really seems to have better routines for that). It does adjust much quicker to my route deviations and it does have a great screen.

The latest version of this phone is the HTC HD7, but I cannot believe it is a significant improvement over this.

[wa5ngp]

I hear you on the innate knowledge. Despite the fact that I designed hardware things similar to this they can still be a mystery. Its all in the programming. Reading glasses do help a lot.

Here is the main question. Have you ever been anywhere without cellphone coverage and tried the GPS mapping feature(s). Like Big Bend or the Gulf of Mexico or middle of nowhere? I want one where I don't have to have a data package. Yes, I know, I'm cheap.

Don

[dtlee]

I think so....perhaps this will answer your question....since I am mostly in urban/suburban areas.

I have run Copilot 8 on my HTC/HD2 on an airplane (a carrier which allows it) while in airplane mode. Copilot did use the internal GPS of the phone and did not require any cellular connection (though it obviously did not alert me to any ground traffic congestion without it).

As an aside, I had the option of either watching it desperately trying to figure out what road I was on below or scolding me that I can't walk that fast (I do not recall the actual message) since it's vehicle types are Automobile, RV, Motorcycle, Bicycle, or Walking. Not sure what it would tell you in the Gulf of Mexico.

[wa5ngp]

thanks I'll look up that one, copilot for android I guess.

Can you make your own maps, (I know I'm pushing it):rolleyes:

don

[Ken in Regina]

The company is ALK Technologies. Here's the link for CoPilot for Android.

http://www.alk.com/copilot/android/

As far as I know you cannot make custom maps for CoPilot as you can for Garmin devices.

With assisted GPS (AGPS) on the smartphones you generally get a number of benefits. For instance, if you are in cell phone coverage you will get a quicker fix because the cell sites "know" their fixed location and can give you a fix immediately. Then the GPS can catch up and refine things. This is also useful in places like concrete canyons where you can't get a GPS fix due to no satellite view or too much multipath. The information from the cell sites is generally good enough to get you where you're going.

Conversely, if you have an app like CoPilot where the maps are loaded onto the device, the GPS gives you the benefits of a standalone GPS device like Betty or a Nuvi.

The biggest problem with the smartphone GPS functions is that there's not much room for a decent antenna so even though it likely has the latest GPS receiver chip technology in it, it just can't get as good reception as Betty or a standalone GPS unit.

...ken...

[wa5ngp]

That one looks good for auto nav. They seem to have been lurking in the background. Map upgrades look reasonable priced too.

Are ya'll aware of any that are aimed at the hiking geocaching segment. ie they capture nice trail data like elevations etc and have topo maps?

Don

[Ken in Regina]

I don't have direct experience with CoPilot. If you want to know more, check out the ALK CoPilot forum here:

http://www.laptopgpsworld.com/

There are at least a couple of the users who are using it on their Android phones as well.

...ken...

[waltisimo]

I too have been enjoying CoPilot. Most map apps now can work just fine without any data connection. Some are still cloud based, but I think they clearly state that they are.

I also am enjoying iHikeGPS for high quality topo quads on the good looking iDevice displays.

So how is it that the iDevices with the great display, high quality built in GPS, and choice of several good GPS apps don't _qutie_ do it for me? I recently acquired a used iQue 3600 because I missed my broken one.

[Ken in Regina]

It's not the quality of the display or even of individual apps. The display quality of the iQue 3600 is already pretty darn good, as is the quality of the apps for it. The new devices aren't enough better to offset the missing stuff.

The standout attraction of the iQue 3600 is the complete set of PIM functions and the integration of the PIM functions, particularly the addressbook, with the GPS. Also the map and search features are more complete than any of the newer dumbed-down interfaces.

One of the things I miss most in all the new devices is that none of them do a proper sync, a la Palm. The iQue and all other Palm OS devices sync the PIM apps to the associated Desktop functions. Plus you get a complete backup of everything else onto the PC, including settings and third-party apps.

...ken...