To register for an Internet.com membership to receive newsletters and white papers, use the Register button ABOVE.
To participate in the message forums BELOW, click here

PDA Street


Go Back   PDA street forums > PalmBlvd > PALM General Discussion > Garmin GPS Handhelds

View Poll Results: My serial number is greater than 90284000 and my unit
Has a lot of soft resets due to static 3 13.04%
Has some soft resets due to static 11 47.83%
Has no soft resets due to static 9 39.13%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-26-2004, 07:54 PM
rwsmith123's Avatar
rwsmith123 rwsmith123 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 859
Program to log resets.

Here is a program that will log everytime your unit resets. Just install the .prc file and each time your unit resets it will log the time in the memopad.

Feel free to give any feedback on the program in this thread.

WARNING: Since the program does it's stuff after a reset, if there happens to be a bug in my code which causes a reset you will get into a reset loop. If this happens press and hold the scroll-up button and then press the reset button. Release the scroll-up button when the palm logo appears.

I would also like to hear from people with a serial number greater than 90284000 and state if you have problems with the iQue doing soft resets from static electricity or not.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-26-2004, 07:59 PM
rwsmith123's Avatar
rwsmith123 rwsmith123 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 859
Here is the program, guess I couldn't attach it before because of the poll.
Attached Files
File Type: zip resetlog.zip (7.6 KB, 1565 views)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-27-2004, 07:02 PM
jonasolof jonasolof is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Belgium & Sweden
Posts: 4,056
resetlog

Very good thanks a lot. Mine has started to reset more often. I think it should be really interesting to Garmin to see the behaviour of resets in units prior to failure. Just hope it will be backed up to save the data.

I have seen the date screen appear lot of times. It has been correct but I didn't click on it. Seems like an aborted reset. No palm logo and no data lost and date and time intact.
__________________
Jonas

iQue 3600 and GPS10/Loox 720
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-27-2004, 08:00 PM
rwsmith123's Avatar
rwsmith123 rwsmith123 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 859
Re: resetlog

Quote:
Originally posted by jonasolof
Very good thanks a lot. Mine has started to reset more often. I think it should be really interesting to Garmin to see the behaviour of resets in units prior to failure. Just hope it will be backed up to save the data.

I have seen the date screen appear lot of times. It has been correct but I didn't click on it. Seems like an aborted reset. No palm logo and no data lost and date and time intact.
You've had the date screen appear while you were working with the iQue? Or you turn the unit on and it's at the date screen? If you turn it on and it's at the date screen then it did a reset. For example if the iQue is sleeping and you have it in your pocket, and it gets a static reset, then it will come on show the palm logo and beep (if the speaker volume is up) and then go to the date screen and then go to sleep after 2 minutes.

I've had two different 9028... units and both reset constently from the very start. These have the new redesigned boards that is supposed to keep the internal antenna from being fried by static. I called Garmin to see if they were working on a fix for the reset problem (I think it's a design problem with the new board since both units behaved exactly the same way). The tech said that the new board should have fixed the reset problems as well and suggested that I send my latest unit in for RMA and gave me an RMA number that would route it to someone that would try and figure out exactly what the problem is. I told the tech that I would be extremly unhappy if I sent it away and I get it back and the problem isn't fixed and I would rather just keep it unless they were positive that they could fix the problem. They said it would be fixed, so I sent it away today. So in about a week I'll be either really happy or really pissed!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-27-2004, 11:05 PM
OWG's Avatar
OWG OWG is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 849
I also have a 9028 serial. I sent my original in because of massive resetting (at least 4-5 times a day). The new one (received mid-January) has had soft resets, however not nearly as much as the original (4-5 times total simce I received). They did correct it some, but still not entirely fixed. My only problem originally was the resets. Never had a prob with the internal antenna. Tech said the same thing, that the redesign would fix the static issues. They still have some work to go. My warranty will expire in August (it is one year, right?), so I am going to wait a bit before sending in again. Maybe they can improve even further...??
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-27-2004, 11:44 PM
rwsmith123's Avatar
rwsmith123 rwsmith123 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 859
Mine would reset almost everytime I put it in my jacket pocket.

The resets are annoying, but the main problem is that if the unit is doing a reset because of ESD, then there is probably damage being done. It might not show up right away, but it can very well cause failures down the road. Take a look at this site: http://www.compliance-club.com/archive1/020930.htm
Take notice of the picture and caption.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-28-2004, 07:58 AM
jonasolof jonasolof is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Belgium & Sweden
Posts: 4,056
Quote:
Originally posted by rwsmith123
Mine would reset almost everytime I put it in my jacket pocket.

The resets are annoying, but the main problem is that if the unit is doing a reset because of ESD, then there is probably damage being done. It might not show up right away, but it can very well cause failures down the road. Take a look at this site: http://www.compliance-club.com/archive1/020930.htm
Take notice of the picture and caption.
Thanks!

You are right about the iQue being powered on showing the date screen. So it must be resets in pocket while turned off. I'll enable the loudspeaker so I can hear better when it happens.

Very informative article. It underlines my fear that resets are like transitory ischemic periods in humans, the forebode a stroke.

The bad story is that Garmin did not design the unit with this level of static problems in mind. When my 9024xxxx unit died totally in the car october I raised the issue with the shop. They sent a mail to the national reseller which was forwarded to Garmin.

A person named Russ at Garmin in the US answered (I can't find the mail now) that it was highly improbable that levels of statics high enough to cause trouble would occur because if this was the case, the would have made provisions to ground the unit

Thus, it seems that the basic design has not been done with statics problems sufficiently dealt with - just as the article suggests is often the case - and now Garmin tries to correct the flaws in retrospect which is much more difficult.

From another thread I notice that Anders apersson850 gets identical results each time he runs VFS mark on his Toshiba card but not on the SaDisk card. When I test my 512 MB Panasonic card the same way (identical conditions each time) I get varying results, especially in file write and database export. This I take as an ominous sign of possible statics damage done to either the SD card or to the SD card interface of the iQue.

The bottom line is unfortunately that the iQue in its present shape is a flawed design due to the lack of preventive measures against statics - and that minor changes of components on the board might not be enough to come to terms with the problem.
__________________
Jonas

iQue 3600 and GPS10/Loox 720
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-28-2004, 11:25 AM
rwsmith123's Avatar
rwsmith123 rwsmith123 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally posted by jonasolof
Thanks!

You are right about the iQue being powered on showing the date screen. So it must be resets in pocket while turned off. I'll enable the loudspeaker so I can hear better when it happens.

Very informative article. It underlines my fear that resets are like transitory ischemic periods in humans, the forebode a stroke.

The bad story is that Garmin did not design the unit with this level of static problems in mind. When my 9024xxxx unit died totally in the car october I raised the issue with the shop. They sent a mail to the national reseller which was forwarded to Garmin.

A person named Russ at Garmin in the US answered (I can't find the mail now) that it was highly improbable that levels of statics high enough to cause trouble would occur because if this was the case, the would have made provisions to ground the unit

Thus, it seems that the basic design has not been done with statics problems sufficiently dealt with - just as the article suggests is often the case - and now Garmin tries to correct the flaws in retrospect which is much more difficult.

From another thread I notice that Anders apersson850 gets identical results each time he runs VFS mark on his Toshiba card but not on the SaDisk card. When I test my 512 MB Panasonic card the same way (identical conditions each time) I get varying results, especially in file write and database export. This I take as an ominous sign of possible statics damage done to either the SD card or to the SD card interface of the iQue.

The bottom line is unfortunately that the iQue in its present shape is a flawed design due to the lack of preventive measures against statics - and that minor changes of components on the board might not be enough to come to terms with the problem.
Actually it could be that they did design the iQue with ESD in mind from the start but a small flaw that can be easily fixed is causing all the problems we're seeing, or it could be that they didn't and just threw some stuff in at the last minute. It could have good ESD protection in the design, but poor quality at the factory (for example loading the machine that installs the components with the wrong parts so that the wrong value of a capacitor or resistor is installed). Or it could be the parts supplier is providing poor quality or out of spec parts. Could be a combination of all the above. There's really no way for us to know. I'm sure Garmin is trying to get to the bottom of these issues because it is becoming very expensive for them.

Here is a perfect example of poor quality at the factory. One of the iQue's that I got as a replacement (this was a brand new unit, the track log showed where it was turned on in Taiwan and nothing else) was shipped with City Navigator instead of City Select and came with the setup disk for the Street Pilot III. However the sticker on the software box was the serial # of the unit I had. So what happened was that the software for the Street Piolit III made it into the bin for the iQue, then it was matched to a particular iQue, the serial number was printed on the box, the unlock key generated for the iQue's serial number and then printed on the yellow paper then inserted into the box for the software and sealed.

As for what Russ said, you need to take anything that tech support says with a grain of salt. They didn't design the unit and only know what they are told. Some are more knowelable than others and some will just make up stuff. What he said really doesn't make any sense. All electronic devices have a ground refrence. If the device is plugged into an ac outlet this refrence is probably true earth ground. If it's not plugged in then it's not truely "grounded".

As for the differing results from running vfsmark, there can be valid reasons for this. The palm operating system is an event system. Every program that you have installed can respond to events that they are interested in. So there are things going on in the background which can affect the results of the benchmark from one run to the next. Unless there is a significant difference in the results I wouldn't worry about it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-28-2004, 01:26 PM
jonasolof jonasolof is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Belgium & Sweden
Posts: 4,056
Quote:
Originally posted by rwsmith123

As for what Russ said, you need to take anything that tech support says with a grain of salt. They didn't design the unit and only know what they are told. Some are more knowelable than others and some will just make up stuff. What he said really doesn't make any sense. All electronic devices have a ground refrence. If the device is plugged into an ac outlet this refrence is probably true earth ground. If it's not plugged in then it's not truely "grounded".

This was the actual statement by Russ Watts:

"It is very unlikely to produce tha much static electricity to cause a problem. If it did, we would have provided a system to ground the unit"

If it referred to the unit in car, the statement would make sense. But actually, the iQue is grounded to chassis when power is applied through the car cradle.

I agree that it was simply not a very well founded statement. It is not expressed in the way somebody working in the field would do.

As for the differing results from running VFSmark, there can be valid reasons for this. The palm operating system is an event system. Every program that you have installed can respond to events that they are interested in. So there are things going on in the background which can affect the results of the benchmark from one run to the next. Unless there is a significant difference in the results I wouldn't worry about it.
Agree, but Anders came to identical results on (only) two tests.
My Database export results are 111, 108, 109, 155
File delete 107, 77, 136, 96
File write 39, 66, 48, 60
And my concern is the redraw time on detailed maps when zoomed out. Now, there might not be a problem and there could be one. It merits further study and it would be good if a specific VFSmark parameter could be linked to map redraw time. And how do you detect a card malfunctioning because of statics if it isn't down right dead.

Logically, database export should be the most relevant figure.
__________________
Jonas

iQue 3600 and GPS10/Loox 720

Last edited by jonasolof; 01-28-2004 at 01:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-28-2004, 01:35 PM
atszyman's Avatar
atszyman atszyman is offline
...
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Here to me, there to you
Posts: 205
As far as I know I have not had one soft reset due to static with SN: 9026XXXX. I have had soft resets that I have had to perform manually but I believe those to be due to shutting down the GPS and the unit too close together as detailes in this thread.
__________________
"Today I...........No, that wasn't me."
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-28-2004, 01:44 PM
jajohnson jajohnson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kulpsville, PA
Posts: 80
I have unit # 90285xxx and have only experienced resets (2 total in 2 months) when I have done a couple of things simultaneously in QUE, like stopping recalcualte route in the middle of a long route, then stop GPS and start a new long (1000 mile calculation). Neither seem to me to be static related.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-28-2004, 01:58 PM
rwsmith123's Avatar
rwsmith123 rwsmith123 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally posted by jonasolof
Agree, but Anders came to identical results on (only) two tests.
My Database export results are 111, 108, 109, 155
File delete 107, 77, 136, 96
File write 39, 66, 48, 60
And my concern is the redraw time on detailed maps when zoomed out. Now, there might not be a problem and there could be one. It merits further study and it would be good if a specific VFSmark parameter could be linked to map redraw time. And how do you detect a card malfunctioning because of statics if it isn't down right dead.

Logically, database export should be the most relevant figure.
That's more of a difference than I would expect. The first thing I would do would be to elimanate software. I would do a hard reset to clear out all the programs and move all the programs in the /Palm/Launcher directory to a different one. Then just install vfsmark and run a few tests and log the results. If the results still differ a lot, go to www.palmcommander.com and download palmcommander. Just install the benchmark.prc file and run it a few times to see if you get pretty consistant results. If not then I would suspect a hardware problem at that point. If you get consistant results with benchmark, but not vfsmark (on a clean iQue), then see if you can borrow someone else's SD card and run vfsmark on that to see if it is the SD card or not.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-28-2004, 03:09 PM
jonasolof jonasolof is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Belgium & Sweden
Posts: 4,056
Thanks for the advice. I'll do it tomorrow, my desk hasn't been cleared for 3 weeks. I have a Dane Elec/Toshiba card that I can test also.
__________________
Jonas

iQue 3600 and GPS10/Loox 720
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-28-2004, 05:18 PM
apersson850's Avatar
apersson850 apersson850 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,885
I did yet another VFSmark on the Toshiba card. Still in the same iQue as was used by the previous tests.

Only significant difference this time was that "File Write" went down from 12-13% to 7%. All other figures are within a few steps in the last digit.

This about ESD and electric/electronic machinery:
Being a professional in this particular field, I've fought this kind of problem for at least 15 years now. I'm working with the design of machinery for the printing business. Everyone who has felt what can happen to paper, when you run it through a hot-fusion, continous web printer at 400+ images per minute, can imagine what kind of ESD phenomena we encounter in these machines.

Sometimes it looks like you can save on the lighting in the building, since that's taken care of by the sparks.

But we've learned the trade, sometimes the hard way, and can now frequently just pass our machinery through the tests, like the EN 61000-4-2 mentioned in the referenced article (it's good, I actually have a printout at work, a copy I use to pester the personnel in our production facilities with sometimes), without any further modifications. Often, they even work at the customers sites, without too much problem with statics.

I'll try to keep away from an in-depth analysis of all kinds of electric noise, and its countermeasures. It's the wrong forum, and I could keep on for hours.
Still, I would like to comment on the wordings about "ground" above. I'll make several simplifications, so if there are other electronic engineers out there, please refrain from commenting and making this as complex as it really is. We'll just feed the laymans with what they need to know.

While it's true that all electric equipment has some kind of ground, there are usually more than one.
If it's a unit that's connected to a grounded AC outlet, that ground is one ground in the machine. But not necessarily the logic ground that the electronics work with. Preferably, it's not.
However, it's this ground that has to eventually swallow all noise that comes into the machine. So, one way or another, there must either be a way for this noise to leave the electronic parts, where it's harmful, or better, to conduct it towards ground before it even reaches the electronics.

Totally enclosed circuits are easier to protect. But the iQue has the antenna connector at one end, the Universal Palm Connector at the other end, and various other exits and openings.
Once I know I had a spark going from my finger to the top of the iQue, which then was in the cradle. Since the cradle contains some kind of ground (even if the charger has no galvanic connection to ground), it will look like a ground to the static discharge.
In an ideal machine (that's how we design our units), such a spark would be conducted by the cover of the machine, to the ground point. The fact that my iQue did a reset when that happened, shows that enough of the energy took the way through the electronics.

All signals with high frequencies, regardless of whether it's the fundamental frequency or a harmonic, can't be satisfactorily conducted in thin wires. As a rule of thumb, we say that if a wire is more than five times a long as it's wide, then it's of no use as far as taking care of high-frequency noise. For that takes a surface.
ESD is a high-frequency phenomena, due to the fast risetimes of these currents. I don't remember exactly, but my spine says that the order of magnitude is 1 ns. So the frequencies involved are in the GHz range.

So PCB:s are nowdays multi-layered. A stable PCB sometimes has a ground plane between all the signal layers, or at least ground planes on both sides as well as in the middle.
If the machine cover is conducting, then it's an excellent conductor for this kind of noise, since it's not a wire, but a surface.

So, had the iQue had a metallic cover, which was integrated with the electric system according to the state of the art, it would

a) Be more resistent to static.
b) Be awfully cold to hold in your hand in the winter.

The last problem can be dealt with by having plastic layers cover the metallic, etc.

Then there's also a plethora of various protective components, as can be seen in the article. Basically, a perfectly shielded unit doesn't need any. But for various reasons, a perfect electric system may render the machine inoperable to the user, so there has to be compromises taken.

That's exactly the point where the engineers at Garmin didn't go long enough in this case, obviously.

I'm in the deepest sympathy with these guys, as well as with all the users, that suffer from the mistake.
I did exactly the same thing, about 13 years ago, due to not knowing better then. We also had to re-build machines already delivered and so on. Sometimes they worked, sometimes not. Uuurgh! It was a mess.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-28-2004, 05:23 PM
jonasolof jonasolof is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Belgium & Sweden
Posts: 4,056
Good speech, but you don't need to repeat it
__________________
Jonas

iQue 3600 and GPS10/Loox 720
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:29 PM.




Click Here to Expand Forum to Full Width





Acceptable Use Policy


The Network for Technology Professionals

Search:

About Internet.com

Legal Notices, Licensing, Permissions, Privacy Policy.
Advertise | Newsletters | E-mail Offers

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.